Need info, dyed kerosene.
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Dyed kerosene, illegal in USA
I need some info regarding dyed kerosene.
I have been told by someone that it´s illegal to use for helicopter operations, but he can´t show me where it says so.
I have read thrue the MD500 flight manual (what we fly), talked to FAA reps and other turbin engine related compaines. Witch all say´s it is ok to run. But my collegue claims a guy lost his licens due to running it.
Were just looking into doing the right thing here.
So i though I´d throw out a fishhook here and see what i catch.
I have been told by someone that it´s illegal to use for helicopter operations, but he can´t show me where it says so.
I have read thrue the MD500 flight manual (what we fly), talked to FAA reps and other turbin engine related compaines. Witch all say´s it is ok to run. But my collegue claims a guy lost his licens due to running it.
Were just looking into doing the right thing here.
So i though I´d throw out a fishhook here and see what i catch.
Last edited by MrEdd; 23rd Mar 2010 at 00:34.
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I've been told that it will degrade the coatings applied to the metals in the hot section.
Same deal though, cant find any official statement saying this.
I'd like to know if its the dye itself, the sulfur or what? I was also told that kerosene, diesel and jetA are all basicaly the same....go figure.
Same deal though, cant find any official statement saying this.
I'd like to know if its the dye itself, the sulfur or what? I was also told that kerosene, diesel and jetA are all basicaly the same....go figure.
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The 500 TCDS calls for,
The TCDS is prefaced by,
Not a lawyer, but would suggest if you don't comply with the flight manual, which will contain the above info, you're looking for trouble should the unthinkable occur. Particularly in the good old litigious US of A.
MIL-DTL-5624, Grade JP-4, and JP-5 Aviation Fuels
MIL-DTL-83133 Grade JP-8 Aviation Fuel
ASTM D-1655 Jet A, A-1 or Jet B
ASTM D-6615 Jet B
Chinese Specification GB6537-94 Grade RP-3
See “Rotorcraft Flight Manual” for alternate fuels.
See “Note 6” for Anti-Icing additive.
See “Engine TCDS E4CE Note #9” for emergency use mixtures and limits.
Note: Fuels containing Tri-cresyl-phosphate additives shall not be used.
NOTE 6. For all operations below 40º F ambient temperature all fuel, except MIL-G-5572 (Aviation Gasoline), must contain anti-icing additive conforming to MIL-I-27686 in concentrations of 0.035 per cent by volume minimum 0.15 percent by volume maximum. See Rotorcraft Flight Manual for checking concentrations and blending.
MIL-DTL-83133 Grade JP-8 Aviation Fuel
ASTM D-1655 Jet A, A-1 or Jet B
ASTM D-6615 Jet B
Chinese Specification GB6537-94 Grade RP-3
See “Rotorcraft Flight Manual” for alternate fuels.
See “Note 6” for Anti-Icing additive.
See “Engine TCDS E4CE Note #9” for emergency use mixtures and limits.
Note: Fuels containing Tri-cresyl-phosphate additives shall not be used.
NOTE 6. For all operations below 40º F ambient temperature all fuel, except MIL-G-5572 (Aviation Gasoline), must contain anti-icing additive conforming to MIL-I-27686 in concentrations of 0.035 per cent by volume minimum 0.15 percent by volume maximum. See Rotorcraft Flight Manual for checking concentrations and blending.
This data sheet, which is part of Type Certificate No. H3WE, prescribes conditions and limitations under which the Product for which the Type Certificate was issued meets the airworthiness requirements of the Civil Air Regulations and, where specified, the Federal Aviation Regulations.
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Be careful using dyed fuel. Had an acquaintance have a flame out from using dyed diesel. The heat caused the dye to clog up the fuel nozzle then - poof!!! 
Kind of ruined his whole day. 
Kind of ruined his whole day.
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At one time I heard something about here in the USA they were dying either deisel or Jet A, not sure which. I think Deisel.
The reason I was told was that over the road truckers were using jet fuel because it was cheaper and was not paying any road taxes.
I have no supporting evidence so take it or leave it....
Bill
The reason I was told was that over the road truckers were using jet fuel because it was cheaper and was not paying any road taxes.
I have no supporting evidence so take it or leave it....
Bill
Diesel thread drift:
We've got red and green diesel at the pumps. The red is for equipment and the green is intended for road vehicles.
While there's a difference in the price (I haven't studied it, but I'm pretty sure the difference is the tax rate), I'm fairly sure that the green stuff is supposed to be of the low-sulphur variety. This is California, after all.
The only reason I noticed this was the Bobcat was running out of fuel over the weekend. Perhaps someone else has some specifics. So my guess is that your pals are running the red (equipment) fuel in the green (highway) vehicle.
Aside: when I was a kid we'd buy 1,000 gallons of heating oil for the Kenworth to avoid highway excise tax.
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We've got red and green diesel at the pumps. The red is for equipment and the green is intended for road vehicles.
While there's a difference in the price (I haven't studied it, but I'm pretty sure the difference is the tax rate), I'm fairly sure that the green stuff is supposed to be of the low-sulphur variety. This is California, after all.
The only reason I noticed this was the Bobcat was running out of fuel over the weekend. Perhaps someone else has some specifics. So my guess is that your pals are running the red (equipment) fuel in the green (highway) vehicle.
Aside: when I was a kid we'd buy 1,000 gallons of heating oil for the Kenworth to avoid highway excise tax.
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There is other differences between motor fuel grade and aviation Jet A.
The motor grade has something like 128 different things added to it from lubricants for the valves of the production plant, to anti fungals, Then there are additives for combustion flame fronts in the engine etc etc.
Jet A has another load of additives but different ones. If you want to run Jet A in your car stick a couple of quarts of 2 stroke oil in the tank every fill other wise you engine will die after a couple of thousand miles running on it.
As for using motor grade in an aviation engine?
Gawd knows its proberly like most things you will get away with it in a once off get the old girl home requirement. Start using it every fill its going to bite your bum hard.
The motor grade has something like 128 different things added to it from lubricants for the valves of the production plant, to anti fungals, Then there are additives for combustion flame fronts in the engine etc etc.
Jet A has another load of additives but different ones. If you want to run Jet A in your car stick a couple of quarts of 2 stroke oil in the tank every fill other wise you engine will die after a couple of thousand miles running on it.
As for using motor grade in an aviation engine?
Gawd knows its proberly like most things you will get away with it in a once off get the old girl home requirement. Start using it every fill its going to bite your bum hard.
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rick1128 is correct. Dyes are inert to the fuel, and are only there to identify automotive fuels for tax purposes...most typically red dye is added to diesel fuel intended for agricultural or other non-highway uses, such as to power night heaters. But non of this has anything to do with aviation. While Kerosene, Jet A1 and diesel are similar, ie: they are an oil-based distillates from the same 'cut' of the barrel, they each are given individual additives to suit the use. You cannot, for example, expect to run a biz jet on diesel. Remember, these fuels are not just fuel to make you go. Each has a lubrication and a cooling job to perform, also, specific to the type of engine and its various pumps, valves, etc. That's the part you'll be messing with. Here endeth the lesson!
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You cannot, for example, expect to run a biz jet on diesel.
The red diesel is non taxable fuel for ag,farm and the likes.Out here in Ca. they routinely check the fuel tanks on over the road trucks at scales and roadside inspections.BIG,BIG fines if caught.
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Brian A
Yeah I read thrue that to, but on the other hand so does the Allison book state that Kerosene is an accepted fuel.
If there is any restictions/not legal I start thinking it's tax related or such. But then I would guess it would not be stated in Far or flight Manuals, but rather in DOT.
Yeah I read thrue that to, but on the other hand so does the Allison book state that Kerosene is an accepted fuel.
If there is any restictions/not legal I start thinking it's tax related or such. But then I would guess it would not be stated in Far or flight Manuals, but rather in DOT.
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Way, way back when I helped oversee a fuel farm, one of the gents from Chevron informed me that Jet A, kerosene, home heating oil, over the road and offroad diesel all came from the same tank at the supplier. The difference was the additives added at the manifold as it was pumped into the trucks. For example diesel would have dyes and lubricants added while Jet A was basically pure.
We ran home heating oil for years with no problems. Ran it in the vehicles too, just added a bit of marvel mystery oil at each fillup.
We ran home heating oil for years with no problems. Ran it in the vehicles too, just added a bit of marvel mystery oil at each fillup.
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but on the other hand so does the Allison book state that Kerosene is an accepted fuel
You need to be very careful of using the term kerosene because the term can cover a wide range of products. The following are the fuel specs as called for in one particular helicopters flight manual.
You will note that #3 calls for Kerosene. But the requirement is for it to meet the specifications called out in ASTM-D-1655 JetA (Standard Specification for Aviation Turbine Fuels). A drum of the stuff from Wal-mart made for your camping equipment will not comply.
Fuels are required to meet certain specs, and even then you can run into trouble, as one New Zealand airline found out. The particular batch of fuel lacked the necessary lubricity properties, and the FCUs were giving up the ghost, resulting in engine failures. Was found the fuel specs did not adequately address lubricity issues.
I have been a lotta places where everyone -trucks, houses, planes helicopters all burned Arctic Diesel out of the same bowser.
It was either that or wait for the next sealift.
On an aside I seem to remember that the Garret engines (SP?)on a Shorts Skyvan demonstrator I saw in the mid 70's had the longest list of alternate fuels I have ever seen. I think PT6s have a goodly list too.
It was either that or wait for the next sealift.
On an aside I seem to remember that the Garret engines (SP?)on a Shorts Skyvan demonstrator I saw in the mid 70's had the longest list of alternate fuels I have ever seen. I think PT6s have a goodly list too.
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A minor data point:
I believe Alouette 2s can be run on heating kerosene (according to their PoH), so long as you do something to filter out the excess water. An extra stage on the output of the bowser suffices for this.
I believe Alouette 2s can be run on heating kerosene (according to their PoH), so long as you do something to filter out the excess water. An extra stage on the output of the bowser suffices for this.
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I have been a lotta places where everyone -trucks, houses, planes helicopters all burned Arctic Diesel out of the same bowser.
I believe Alouette 2s can be run on heating kerosene (according to their PoH), so long as you do something to filter out the excess water.
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Our crop dusters are certified to use jet a, kerosene, or diesel. Kerosene works great and has a lower sulfur content than jet a to keep toxic fumes to a minimum when using in homes for heat. It is usually very clean like jet a but is not strictly monitored because it's not intended for air craft use. Diesel is a great fuel on one hand because you get more BTU's per gallon which equates to more power. The down side is it's filthy dirty. Here in Louisiana our diesel comes on barge up the Mississippi river and it's terrible. I don't know about other parts of the world but we only use it when all other sources have been exhausted.
My biggest concern using diesel is all the foreign matter that tends to clog filters and fuel nozzles if it were to get past the filters. Just my $.02 worth.
barryb
My biggest concern using diesel is all the foreign matter that tends to clog filters and fuel nozzles if it were to get past the filters. Just my $.02 worth.
barryb