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NH-90 problems

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NH-90 problems

Old 14th Dec 2021, 14:46
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Originally Posted by casper64 View Post
Which is quite smart considering the threat level there…. Big advantage: you can see a lot more! 😃
Unfortunately the helicopters are there for a reason other than just enjoying the view; those reasons are in FOB’s, and not not FL100
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Old 14th Dec 2021, 15:44
  #162 (permalink)  
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I would imagine that NH Industries might do quite well to hire Team NZ to demonstrate their techniques and methods of operating and managing this platform firstly to themselves, and secondly to all the other operators of this platform. After the Norwegians elected to continue with deliveries, they are now looking for a commercially operated shipborne solution to fill the void!

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...requirements08 DECEMBER 2021

Norway considers NH90 alternatives to meet coastguard requirements

by Gareth Jennings

Norway is to field 14 NH90 NFH helicopters, of which eight will be used for coastguard, and six for anti-submarine and other maritime duties. For the embarked coastguard role, the country is looking at a commercially leased alternative to meet its requirements. (NHIndustries)

Norway has issued a request for information (RFI) for alternatives to its NHIndustries NH90 helicopters that are not able to meet all of the requirements of the country's coastguard.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) told Janes on 7 December that is gauging market interest should it decide to move forward with acquiring a long-term supplemental capability to the NH90s, by leasing an embarked helicopter capability from a commercial vendor.

“The Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA) is exploring opportunities to procure leased aircraft services in support of coastguard operations within the Norwegian maritime area of responsibility focusing on the high north, the northern Atlantic, the Barents Sea, Svalbard, Jan Mayen,” the RFI stated. “The leased aircraft service will need to provide reliable and efficient embarked support to the coastguard vessels throughout the year during peacetime”

TheRoNAF has to date received 11 of 14 NH90 NATO Frigate Helicopters (NFHs), eight of which plans to operate on behalf of the Norwegian Coast Guard (NoCG) with the type being embarked on NoCG vessels. The MoD told Janes that a commercial leasing option would not see the NH90s being replaced, though it noted that it is considering a long-term solution to supplement the type in service. The RoNAF also operates 10 Leonardo AW101 Merlin helicopters in the land-based search and rescue (SAR) role.

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Old 15th Dec 2021, 04:10
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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it’s funny how many other nations just ‘get in with it’ and you never hear anything. Oman has 18, for instance. France deploys to West Africa on operations (Tiger too). Italy deployed to Afghanistan
The devil is in the detail as you would well know 212. There is an article saying Germany has had a serviceability rate of some 12% or so with its NH90 and Tiger, placing the blame on Airbus who does the maintenance. Where does the truth lie? You'd need someone with the wisdom of Solomon to discern the truth.
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 07:57
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat View Post
Unfortunately the helicopters are there for a reason other than just enjoying the view; those reasons are in FOB’s, and not not FL100
If you carrying these troops from an FOB to somewhere else you want to do that in the safest possible way. Based on the threat level in Afghanistan that was in “10.000ft” (or at least above the small-arms band and not in 50ft where every lucky guy with an AK on the ground can put a hole in you. If there is no radar or manpad threat, no reason to fly low unless for a surprise effect at the destination. From what I heard both Dutch and Australian troops, as well as some Americans who worked with the Dutch were happy that they were there to either transport them or save their arse. But we are digressing from the NH topic :-)
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 13:29
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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There was a very credible manpad threat, and airspace was worked in blocks depending on user/type - its not just as simple as flying around at 10,000 feet because you deem it safe. Let's just leave it there, as the more you type, the more obvious it is that you've no idea what you're talking about, which is why my responses don't contain the phrase 'from what I heard......'

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Old 15th Dec 2021, 15:47
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat View Post
There was a very credible manpad threat, and airspace was worked in blocks depending on user/type - its not just as simple as flying around at 10,000 feet because you deem it safe. Let's just leave it there, as the more you type, the more obvious it is that you've no idea what you're talking about, which is why my responses don't contain the phrase 'from what I heard......'
You are wrong… spend a few hundred hours flying there and then. (Not in Cougars..) Talked to many nationalities operating on the ground… hence the “what I heard” And as I was stating, they weren’t flying at 10.000 ft but above the small-arms threat band, being protected by their EWS system for the very unlikely event of a manpad launch. And yes there were missions were this threat was higher and they subsequently operated low level as well.
Again let’s go back to the NH topic.
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 20:51
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by casper64 View Post
You are wrong… spend a few hundred hours flying there and then. (Not in Cougars..) Talked to many nationalities operating on the ground… hence the “what I heard” And as I was stating, they weren’t flying at 10.000 ft but above the small-arms threat band, being protected by their EWS system for the very unlikely event of a manpad launch. And yes there were missions were this threat was higher and they subsequently operated low level as well.
Again let’s go back to the NH topic.
Maybe you flew in Afghanistan, but not in the South (unless you had a Stab call sign and left everytime you were needed). Manpads weren’t an unlikely event - many of us saw them.

You’re the one that dragged Afghanistan into the NH discussion. But please, if you’ve finished taking sh1t let’s get back to the NH90
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 21:23
  #168 (permalink)  
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Very interesting comment regarding the performance of the NH-90 and Tiger from the French Minister of the Armed Forces during the celebrations for the huge H160 order placed by the French Government.

Florence Parly came with gifts in her hood but also demands. She no longer wants to encounter the same difficulties with the “Cheetah” as with the “Tiger” and the “Caiman”. " In 2019-2020 three out of four "Tigers" were grounded due to maintenance problems, while the armed forces needed them badly in Mali ". Since then, progress, hailed by the Minister, has been made. “ In 2021, 37% of the fleet could be in the air at the same time ”. But the Cayman is still floundering. The maintenance in operational condition clause is now included in this new contract from the outset.
https://destimed.fr/Deplacement-de-F...​​
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 10:32
  #169 (permalink)  
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Much greater detail contained in the report from the German Inspector General.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/germany-pans-nh90-and-tiger-helicopters-for-low-availability-rates/147121.article

Germany pans NH90 and Tiger helicopters for low availability rates

By Dominic Perry14 January 2022

Germany’s fleets of NH Industries (NHI) NH90s and Airbus Helicopters Tigers are again the subject of stinging criticism for their poor operational availability, with their performance branded as “unsatisfactory”.

Detailing the issues in the defence ministry’s latest operational readiness report, Inspector General Eberhard Zorn says that the helicopters operated by the three branches of the armed forces collectively demonstrated a readiness level of just 40% in the year to mid-December 2021, compared with an overall figure of 77% for the country’s 71 main weapon systems, or 65% for combat and transport aircraft.

Although an improvement on previous years, Zorn says, the figure is “still at too low a level” and is “unsatisfactory”.



Source: Bundeswehr

Tiger (foreground) and NH90 both suffer from low availability rates

While that is in some cases explained by the continued use of legacy rotorcraft such as the navy’s Westland Sea Lynx and Sea Kings, plus the Sikorsky CH-53Gs operated by the air force, Zorn singles out the army’s NH90 troop transports and Tiger attack helicopters for particular censure.

“The reason for the low level of operational readiness remains, especially with ‘complex’ helicopters like the NH90 TTH, NH90 Sea Lion or the Tiger attack helicopter, the very time-consuming maintenance and inspection systems as well as the ongoing retrofitting measures to harmonsise the build standard,” he says.

He cites the nine different sub-variants of NH90 operated by the armed forces as presenting a particular challenge to support from a logistics perspective; the need for specific spare parts, tooling and training have an “aggravating” effect, he says.

Retrofit activities on the NH90s conducted by NHI consortium member Airbus Helicopters in France have been time-consuming, he says, citing delivery delays of up to 12 months, not helped by Covid-19 restrictions.



Source: Bundeswehr

NH90 retrofit activity is taking longer than anticipated to complete

Although maintenance timelines have reduced, says the report – halving the time taken under a previous contract – this was offset by spare parts shortages.

However, Zorn is hopeful this will improve from 2023, when a new centralised spare parts contract for all NH90 operators comes into effect.

NHI president Nathalie Tarnaud Laude recently acknowledged the manufacturer was falling short on maintenance and support provision and said it had begun a process to rectify the situation.

The German navy’s NH90 Sea Lions have also shown low availability levels, but this is in part due to the programme still being in its early stages and the disproportionate impact of absences on a small fleet; Cirium fleets data records just five examples in service.



Source: Bundeswehr

Operations in sandy conditions have taken their toll on H145M fleet

Meanwhile, the operational readiness level of the Tiger “continues to be an unsatisfactory one”.

This has been driven by a “traffic jam” at repair depot level due to a lack of capacity. Efforts to reduce the backlog will begin in 2023, but will not be completed before 2026, the report warns.

A separate process to streamline the maintenance process is also in train, with steps to be implemented until 2026 to “achieve a significant increase in material readiness”.

Older helicopters such as the CH-53G, Sea King and Sea Lion suffer from “age-related susceptibility to malfunctions and a difficult spare parts situation” and can only “be maintained with great effort”, Zorn notes.

The only rotorcraft not to attract criticism is the Airbus Helicopters H145M – flown by both the army and air force – although the operation of the type in Africa’s sandy environment did pose some challenges.



Source: Bundeswehr

Lack of programme maturity has pushed up A400M maintenance costs

Elsewhere, Zorn offers a relatively positive assessment of the Airbus Defence & Space A400M, which he describes as the “go-to tool” during the evacuation of Afghanistan.

Up to 10 A400Ms were available during the period, from a total fleet of 35, the report says. The focus is now on improving the transport’s military capabilities, it says.

However, Zorn adds: “The unsatisfactory technical product maturity of the A400M continues to result in increased maintenance costs, which clearly exceed the capacities of the air force.

“I therefore welcome that the related activities to improve the situation are now being coordinated and vigorously pursued by a steering group led by the [defence ministry] with the involvement of industry to sustainably improve the material readiness of the A400M.”

Little is said about the air force’s Eurofighter fleet, other than to note the overall positive trend in availability, aided by improved access to spare parts.



Source: Bundeswehr

Maintaining Tornado fleet is an increasing challenge

But it is a different story for the Luftwaffe’s elderly Panavia Tornado fleet, where material readiness is “increasingly challenging” to maintain and “can only be ensured with great effort”.

Repair times have also extended enormously: a 300h inspection that used to take 60 working days to complete now lasts for 180 work days, and the duration of a depot-level inspection has risen to 18 months from eight months previously.

“In addition, the risk of obsolescence that can no longer be controlled increases with every day of operation,” says Zorn, noting to the appearance of cracks in the refuelling probe and components that are no longer repairable.

Germany is attempting to procure a successor to the Tornado, enabling its retirement by 2030.


Last edited by Cyclic Hotline; 16th Jan 2022 at 10:38. Reason: Adding source.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 16:32
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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You know that when NHI top dogs admit that there is a problem then the problem is a lot worse than stated.
Masters for understating the issue.
A clear indictment of Airbus and Leonardo capacity and capabilities - or lack of.
Let’s see how the ‘blame game’ develops….
The NH90 fiasco has left numerous nations with severe chasm in their defence capability.
Conspiracy time. Maybe it’s the result of Airbus’s Chinese links and Leonardo Russian links affecting capabilities ?
I wonder if the account of the EH101’s poor availability will be mentioned during the forthcoming television documentary?
US Marines mentioned the poor support during this years’s GDH in Warsaw…..

Last edited by EESDL; 16th Jan 2022 at 17:41.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 18:23
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If you are military - you need spares on the shelf and not rely on ordering some via complicated ways (to many who needs to sign the approval)
No wonder they're down most of the time.
Still, it seems, they haven't learned from the past.
When we went to sea for BOST with two SeaLynx on a frigate - we had three sets of sealing parts for the generator, which are needed with each generator change/swap.
Engine swap/finding problems by interchanging ie generators - you can imagine, how fast you can ground the helicopter?
So we flew to Portland, with some things to swap for parts........ - which helped to run the system - but not to show the problems of the system...
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 23:22
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Spare me spares. Was a time when the entire fleet of our Wessex were grounded because of lack of a serviceable certain part, stores had spares on the shelf but couldn't issue them because they were minimum stock.
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Old 14th Feb 2022, 14:45
  #173 (permalink)  
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The NH90 continues to generate all the wrong kind of press - once again the Norwegians are threatening to terminate the programme. When you consider that 6 aircraft are continuing to operate in a "preliminary" configuration, and the last aircraft is 14 years late on delivery! What a disaster and what a threat to Western defence credibility for anyone that made the mistake of ordering them.

https://forsvaretsforum.no/forsvarsm...optrene/245557

News

LOW TRUST: A helicopter of the type NH90. According to the Minister of Defense, Norway has little confidence in the producer. Photo: Paul Kleiven / NTB.

Minister of Defense: Norway is considering dropping the NH90 helicopters

Norway is considering terminating the contract with the NH90 helicopters, says Minister of Defense Odd Roger Enoksen (Sp). They should have been delivered in 2008, but one is still missing.

NTB[email protected]JOURNALIST
PUBLISHED Wednesday, 09 February 2022 - 12:53 LAST UPDATED Wednesday 09 February 2022 - 13:22Enoksen asks the Ministry of Defense to start work on looking at maritime helicopters for the Armed Forces all over again, writes Aftenposten .

Tip us:

Do you have tips or suggestions for this or other issues? Send us an e-mail at: [email protected] or contact one of the journalists directly .

One possibility that is being considered is to terminate the contract for NH90.

The acquisition of the NH90 helicopters has long been scandal-ridden. Norway ordered 14 of the helicopters in 2001.

All of these should have been in operation in Norway in 2008, on board coastguard ships and navy frigates. 14 years later, one helicopter is still missing.

- We have now received 13 helicopters. But six of these are in a preliminary version. We hear from the Italian supplier that they may be upgraded in 2023, perhaps in 2024, says Enoksen.
Read more:

The ambition level for NH90 halved

- But the fact is that we now have little confidence in the supplier NHI.

There has been a lot of trouble with the NH90 helicopters. In 2019, it became clear that they would be more expensive to operate than first thought. Then the delivery was further delayed. At the end of 2019 , the Coast Guard expressed strong concern about helicopter preparedness, as a result of the problems with NH-90.

Norway has also previously considered terminating the contract, including in 2008, but it is estimated that it will be about as expensive to keep the contract as to terminate it.

Since it has now been even more years without all the helicopters being delivered, and it is also not clear when this will happen, it should again be considered to terminate the contract, says Enoksen.

- Termination of the contract will be neither easy nor free of charge. But this is an expression of the end of patience.

In 2018, the Office of the Auditor-General concluded that the Armed Forces and taxpayers had spent NOK 8 billion on something that had not been delivered.

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Old 14th Feb 2022, 18:30
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I really don't understand how companies can get away with this without serious repercussions. Who writes the contracts? Why do they not get upheld?

I get why NHI can get away with it though. They don't care about their reputation and aren't trying to sell anything else. Just milking the NH90 for all its worth.
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Old 14th Feb 2022, 19:23
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Neither party knows what each other actually wants and there is no incentive to get the aircraft delivered. Multiple junkets on both sides - this is "normal" and each aircraft is "special".

Some people in the role have made a career out of it by the looks. No real surprise. The Norwegian one is "tall" and completely different frame for example.

Internally known as the "No Hope" 90.
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Old 15th Feb 2022, 19:58
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Originally Posted by RVDT View Post
Neither party knows what each other actually wants and there is no incentive to get the aircraft delivered. Multiple junkets on both sides - this is "normal" and each aircraft is "special".

Some people in the role have made a career out of it by the looks. No real surprise. The Norwegian one is "tall" and completely different frame for example.

Internally known as the "No Hope" 90.
By ”tall” you mean high cabin?

If so, the high cabin is the Swedish NH90. Only Sweden did get the high cabin.

The Norwegians have the standard ”low” cabin.

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Old 16th Feb 2022, 06:45
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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By ”tall” you mean high cabin?

If so, the high cabin is the Swedish NH90. Only Sweden did get the high cabin.

The Norwegians have the standard ”low” cabin.
I knew it was one of the Scandyhooligan countries! All the same to me as haven't been there - yet.
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 16:49
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Insert your own punchline...

NH Industries believes it can extend the service life of its NH90 helicopter out to 50 years with no modifications required to the airframe or dynamic components.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...147569.article
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 17:37
  #179 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=SWBKCB;11185171]Insert your own punchline...
NH Industries believes it can extend the service life of its NH90 helicopter out to 50 years with no modifications required to the airframe or dynamic components.
I noticed that one earlier and thought that it perhaps lacked ambition and imagination. I really can't imagine any current scenario that these helicopters couldn't have a service life of 100 or even 1000 years as they never fly! And talk about low MRO costs, a composite airframe, with the same components installed at manufacture should be able to last beyond mere decades, but into centuries.

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Old 18th Feb 2022, 13:32
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Effing funny if NHI bid for NMH contract - stranger things have happened………
for NHI read Leonardo and Airbus in the main - heaven help us!!
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