German Police MD 902 Crash

[Ian Corrigible]

I'd not intended to turn this into a willy waving thread, I was just surprised at the claim made last year that the Explorer had the best safety record in the industry, which is not supported by the statistics.

The 427, another low-volume type, has a far better accident history than the Explorer (without the 20+ ADs related to the Explorer's VSCS, TT straps, etc.). So too, proportionately, does the EC135 (7X production volumes), and I suspect the Power/Grand (4X production volumes) do as well.

I/C

[wallsend]

Early post on this thread "whats happening here, another one? ".

Hence my wish for a little perpective!

The main thing is everbody's OK!

[tigerfish]

safety issues

I will refrain from getting involved in tiresome comparisons between aircraft types, except to say that both the 902 and the EC135 are modern 2nd generation aircraft and are much safer to be in, if today is the day that your number comes up!

Just add up the total numbers of accidents for both types, realise that both are generally engaged in front line emergency service operational flying, and then ask yourself if the number of fatalities might not have been far far higher in older designs?

Tigerfish

[skadi]

Other rumours say that the pilot had just a few hundert hours-and had been involved in another crash just a few years ago...
(I think that they maybe swap something...maybe the P(F) had only a few hours-and maybe the other P(NF) (IP?) had been involved in an accident....)?

These rumours are correct, the pilot of the 2007 crash at Hannover ( see report below ) was also on the 902 which crashed yesterday, together with an instructor.
The latter 902 was purchased 4 weeks after the first crash as a replacement. Together with these two police MDs, a third one ( HEMS ) rolled over in 2005, also at the Airport of Hannover.

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_005/nn_226...0_Hannover.pdf

skadi

[DeltaNg]

whats happening here, another one?

I think skadis above information justifies the quoted comment.

[mfriskel]

The first Hannover Police accident described here was initially a mechanical failure, so the fact that this pilot was on-board both times might just be bad luck. No reason to imply anything else at this time.

The other rollover accident that was HSD, not Hannover Police, was from hanging a skid on a parking-dolly.

Maybe we are uncovering a "Hannover Triangle"! Fortunatly we have seen no injuries of too much consequence and that is a very good thing.

Someone commented on simulators not being available- I had heard PAS was working that issue a couple years ago, does anyone know it that is true or have a status on that project? I just finished a course at FligthSafety in a non-motion AS-350B2 simulator built by Frasca and was quite impressed with the capabilities. The entire device is contained in a room 20 feet by 20 feet and probably 10 feet tall.

[Shawn Coyle]

Aerosimulators was working for several years on one with the Belgian Police, but the status is unknown.

[Flaxton Flyer]

"The 427, another low-volume type, has a far better accident history than the Explorer (without the 20+ ADs related to the Explorer's VSCS, TT straps, etc.). So too, proportionately, does the EC135 (7X production volumes), and I suspect the Power/Grand (4X production volumes) do as well".

The 427, despite being basically a derivitive of every Bell design since the '60s, so hardly cutting-edge technology, (already being phased-out of production) has managed to garner itself 14 ADs despite having being around about 5 years less than the Explorer.

The 135 meanwhile, has scooped up a very commendable 40+ ADs in a similar time frame to the 902.

As for accident stats, can you really compare the record of a mainly VFR twin which is largely used for fair-weather private and charter work against any of the machines used for the much riskier tasks of HEMS / Police ops and get a meaningful outcome?

[Ian Corrigible]

Originally Posted by Flaxton Flyer

The 427, despite being basically a derivitive of every Bell design since the '60s, so hardly cutting-edge technology

Originally Posted by Flaxton Flyer

As for accident stats, can you really compare the record of a mainly VFR twin which is largely used for fair-weather private and charter work against any of the machines used for the much riskier tasks of HEMS / Police ops and get a meaningful outcome?

Both valid comments, but neither challenges the only point I actually made, namely that

Originally Posted by Ian Corrigible

the claim made last year that the Explorer had the best safety record in the industry...is not supported by the statistics

With regards to

Originally Posted by Flaxton Flyer

The 427...has managed to garner itself 14 ADs despite having being around about 5 years less than the Explorer

and

Originally Posted by Flaxton Flyer

The 135 meanwhile, has scooped up a very commendable 40+ ADs in a similar time frame to the 902

You might want to check your stats. According to the FAA, the 427 has only had 9 ADs (plus 2 PW200 ADs), while the EC135 has had 15 ADs (plus 2 PW200 ADs and 5 Arrius 2 ADs). The MD900/902 has had 20 ADs (plus 1 revoked), plus those 2 PW200 ADs.

I/C

[500e]

How hard do you have to hit them

[skadi]

According to the latest publications including a statement from the police they trained landings in the snowy field ( dropping spec forces etc ) . They hit hard during first landing, lost one skid, the FI gained control , but after a short distance they finaly crashed.

More pics:
Polizeihubschrauber verunglückt in der Wedemark Mediathek / HAZ - Hannoversche Allgemeine

skadi

[tecpilot]

The question is not the accident rate of MD or EC, but what have they tried in a half meter of snow far away of any training area? There is a trail of more than 100m on the ground before the final rollover. No special forces around and it's private ground. I bet they had found enough snow covered fields around their base for the training.

And btw the a/c was not equipped with snow skids. As mentioned a lot of snow in this area.

I do not in any way want to berate the operational experience in regard to law enforcement these guys have, but in times like these, when government agencies are cutting flying/training hours down to the minimum, I think it is a fair question to ask whether the whole system isn't outdated. A CPL, who after initial training continues flying only 200 hours a year, if at all, no matter what his/her law enforcement experience, IMHO lacks certain piloting skills a 2/3000+ hour civil trained pilot with onshore operational background may have. While this doesn't have to manifest in normal day life, unusual circumstances, eg snow/whiteout conditions, may be an indicator that things are wrong with the system.

Due to financial cuttings in a lot of police units the average police pilot in Germany gets only 80-100h each year. Some have not more than 50-60h.
Yes, they have a lot of newbies with a limited chance to reach at least 1000h in the next 10 years. And yes they try to do with such limited background all the hot stuff like NVG, IR, NVFR, external load, hoisting, rapelling, fire fighting ...

It's a hard job, really! And the accident rate is compared to the very limited flight time very high. That's not a question of the a/c.

I agree to TorqueStripe "may be an indicator that things are wrong with the system" Except the 2007 MD 902 accident in the same unit, all other accidents in german police units in the last decade counted as worst pilot errors.

[Flaxton Flyer]

"You might want to check your stats. According to the FAA, the 427 has only had 9 ADs (plus 2 PW200 ADs), while the EC135 has had 15 ADs (plus 2 PW200 ADs and 5 Arrius 2 ADs). The MD900/902 has had 20 ADs (plus 1 revoked), plus those 2 PW200 ADs.

I/C Yesterday 11:14"

I/C - Check my stats. And that is exactly the point. Which stats you use, and how you interpret them can put a whole different perspective on things.

Your (FAA) stats show 9 ADs on the Bell 427.

Transport Canada stats, meanwhile show 13 current and 1 cancelled.
CAWIS - AD Record List=

CASA in Oz shows 12 current

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Rotorcraft

And as for the EC135, the FAA may well list 15 ADs but take a look at the German view
http://www2.lba.de/dokumente/ad/html/ads-eurocopter/3061-ec-135.htm

The wonderful world of figures and stats.

[Ian Corrigible]

FF,

Point well made. I guess we still have some way to go in regulatory harmonization & reciprocity.

I/C

[Helinut]

In any discussion about rates, you need to look carefully at the denominator, the exposure population, as well as the number of incidents. As previously mentioned, the 427 has comparatively limited exposure compared with either the 900/902 or the EC135. However, the EC135 has a much greater exposure than the 900/902. Many more aircraft than the 900/902, being flown a significant number of hours per year.