Night landings, off heliport.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 178
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From: Hier und da
SND,
Thanks, a good answer. What about an ad-hoc site you cannot recce in advance and with no ground party to assist you?
e.g. "Tomorrow night, we want you to land as close as possible to.. (a postcode)."
Thanks, a good answer. What about an ad-hoc site you cannot recce in advance and with no ground party to assist you?
e.g. "Tomorrow night, we want you to land as close as possible to.. (a postcode)."
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Do I come here often?
Art;
If the site is in regular use and has ground based lighting and a full survey report and brief was available from a resident pilot then ok. Otherwise no chance. I'm not paid enough to appear on these pages, while everyone speculates on how the hell I was stupid enough to kill myself.
We've had such a request this morning and the customer will be completing his journey, by road from the nearest available airport (10 NM) and the pilot flying is paid less than me, so wants to appear on here even less than me.
What alarms me is that this is the first job for this customer and he claims he has had the type of service you describe from someone. If so I expect to read about that pilot quite soon on this forum.
SND
If the site is in regular use and has ground based lighting and a full survey report and brief was available from a resident pilot then ok. Otherwise no chance. I'm not paid enough to appear on these pages, while everyone speculates on how the hell I was stupid enough to kill myself.
We've had such a request this morning and the customer will be completing his journey, by road from the nearest available airport (10 NM) and the pilot flying is paid less than me, so wants to appear on here even less than me.
What alarms me is that this is the first job for this customer and he claims he has had the type of service you describe from someone. If so I expect to read about that pilot quite soon on this forum.
SND
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 178
Likes: 4
From: Hier und da
I'm not paid enough to appear on these pages, while everyone speculates on how the hell I was stupid enough to kill myself.
What alarms me is that this is the first job for this customer and he claims he has had the type of service you describe from someone. If so I expect to read about that pilot quite soon on this forum.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 898
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From: Do I come here often?
Art;
I'm making a big assumption here, but are you thinking of the guys who somehow manage to do it without any form of ground assistance, lighting etc in fog, rain and plagues of frogs and pestilence? If so you are not alone.
The procedures for this type of work are of necessity tight. I'd rather lose a customer to another operator than a colleague or aircraft through pushing a marginal situation. Someone on here recently wrote that the customer being dead lasts a lot longer than him being inconvenienced, I'd love to have that as the first paragraph of our charter agreement!
SND
I'm making a big assumption here, but are you thinking of the guys who somehow manage to do it without any form of ground assistance, lighting etc in fog, rain and plagues of frogs and pestilence? If so you are not alone.
The procedures for this type of work are of necessity tight. I'd rather lose a customer to another operator than a colleague or aircraft through pushing a marginal situation. Someone on here recently wrote that the customer being dead lasts a lot longer than him being inconvenienced, I'd love to have that as the first paragraph of our charter agreement!
SND
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 26
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From: Greenland
Hi everybody,
It is possible to land off airport in the dark, it is possible to muster reindeer in the dark, it is possible to land in the dark forrest wo lights on the ground, it is possible to fly, work and land in snow and dark in the terrain..
It is not a matter of asphalt and yellow/blue/white lights, it is a matter of training, experience, brains and to take enogh time and use the right procedures..
Fly safe within your limits..
wiisp
It is possible to land off airport in the dark, it is possible to muster reindeer in the dark, it is possible to land in the dark forrest wo lights on the ground, it is possible to fly, work and land in snow and dark in the terrain..
It is not a matter of asphalt and yellow/blue/white lights, it is a matter of training, experience, brains and to take enogh time and use the right procedures..
Fly safe within your limits..
wiisp
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,932
Likes: 143
From: Warrington, UK
What alarms me is that this is the first job for this customer and he claims he has had the type of service you describe from someone. If so I expect to read about that pilot quite soon on this forum.
He did, saying thank you, but someone else had said that the trip wouldn't be a problem. A couple of days after the trip he called back to say that his pilot had scared the s*** out of both of them trying to reach the site and had then left him at the airport, where he had had to make his own way onward. He apologised and said that he would accept the advice in the future.
That pilot is another that I wait to read about on here. But, perhaps he's learned his lesson.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 173
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From: UK
The Sussex Police and Ambulance Helicopter Unit have been carrying out night HEMS and hence night ad hoc landings at unsurveyed sites for nearly 20 years. Nightun, TI and a really good recce from above are considered essential.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
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From: England
I think on this one, we should differentiate between a previously recce'd site and ad-hoc. Where previously recce'd, a landing site effectively becomes a HLS (especially if lit) and poses little danger from the unknown. Ad-hoc sites which police helicopters can land at, albeit very infrequently in the case of the more urban units pose far more risk even with flir, swivelling landing lights and Nitesun. Those of us ex-mil will have plenty experience in all manners of night landings (recce'd or not) but there was plenty of training and practice and (I think) a higher level of risk acceptance.
NVG opens up a whole new debate but once again, in order to operate to ground level, this will involve a great deal of training, practice and currency, not to mention expense. Some units are already geared for it I believe. The question then though, is it necessary? Casevac would be the argument for but at what risk to the public and crew?
How much extra money please?
NVG opens up a whole new debate but once again, in order to operate to ground level, this will involve a great deal of training, practice and currency, not to mention expense. Some units are already geared for it I believe. The question then though, is it necessary? Casevac would be the argument for but at what risk to the public and crew?
How much extra money please?
Last edited by Regain; 3rd December 2009 at 23:53.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,735
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From: Used to be God's own County
Beware the customer who does the "well so and so company/pilot got me there in worse weather..."
not everything is as it seems.......and a well-used ploy by seasoned flyers to try and test the ego of pilots and to discover how big their balls are!
Landing off-airfield at night is not rocket science but also not something where corners can be cut.
not everything is as it seems.......and a well-used ploy by seasoned flyers to try and test the ego of pilots and to discover how big their balls are!
Landing off-airfield at night is not rocket science but also not something where corners can be cut.
