Are you earning £73,281 per year? (UK)
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Back in the early nineties, I had a student Pilot who was an eminent surgeon. He told me of the woman who came to see him and complained about having to pay £75 for the privilege of sitting on the chair in his room for about 5 mins.
His response:-
"You're not paying me for my time Madam, you're paying me for my experience!"
While I accept the airborne taxi driver theory in broad terms (I prefer mini-bus myself), I do wonder, if, as I raise the collective on 10m dollars worth of somebody else's property with 8 or 9 people in the back, I might not allow myself a small bit extra for taking on that responsibilty and for the experience I bring with me to enable me to do the job in the first place?
Just a thought.......
His response:-
"You're not paying me for my time Madam, you're paying me for my experience!"
While I accept the airborne taxi driver theory in broad terms (I prefer mini-bus myself), I do wonder, if, as I raise the collective on 10m dollars worth of somebody else's property with 8 or 9 people in the back, I might not allow myself a small bit extra for taking on that responsibilty and for the experience I bring with me to enable me to do the job in the first place?
Just a thought.......
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I think the point here IS that the oil companies have driven up wages, and for very good reason. They value their people and their safety by and large, so know that they have to ensure they are getting well qualified, well trained people to fly them to and from work. How do you think their families would feel if they were being ferried out to the middle of the North Sea at night in 60 knots of wind, to a small platform in crappy visibility by a pilot who is being paid a pittance and just waiting for a new job to come along? Whilst I agree that 90 percent of the flying is fairly mundane, when it begins to go bad, it happens quickly and dramatically and it certainly requires well trained crews to do the job safely.
I have seen this from both side of the fence, and yes whilst military flying is demanding, it certainly is not true to say it is more demanding than offshore flying. Consider also a typical military pilot will generally fly on average 200 hrs a year - some more, some less, compared to the 600-800 the offshore pilot is flying. Secondly the military pilot has a far greater support and supervision network around him when on ops and in barracks. On top of this is pretty much a guaranteed job for life if you want it, good pension, education allowance, living allowance and married quarters. Now, whilst they are paid less, the value of all the 'extras' begins to make it more comparable.
I am very happy with my job now and very grateful for my salary, and I am also acutely aware of the responsibility we hold toward the families of the 19 passengers in the back, and that is in part along with experience and very well trained and selected crews, what they are paying for.
I have seen this from both side of the fence, and yes whilst military flying is demanding, it certainly is not true to say it is more demanding than offshore flying. Consider also a typical military pilot will generally fly on average 200 hrs a year - some more, some less, compared to the 600-800 the offshore pilot is flying. Secondly the military pilot has a far greater support and supervision network around him when on ops and in barracks. On top of this is pretty much a guaranteed job for life if you want it, good pension, education allowance, living allowance and married quarters. Now, whilst they are paid less, the value of all the 'extras' begins to make it more comparable.
I am very happy with my job now and very grateful for my salary, and I am also acutely aware of the responsibility we hold toward the families of the 19 passengers in the back, and that is in part along with experience and very well trained and selected crews, what they are paying for.
heliski 22, how about being the person that tears that 10mil helicopter apart, does major structural repairs, buttons it all up again, and then watches from the hangar doors as it disappears off to a rig, with the responsibility of the passengers AND crews lives resting on their shoulders?
Yes, the fate of the passengers is in the pilots hands, but there are times when the pilots fate is in the mechanics hands. I never could understand the mentality behind the big payrise for a certain offshore company in the UK a few years back, when the money for it was taken from the payrise the mechanics were supposed to get, but didn't because the company couldn't afford it any longer after giving the pilots the payrise demanded by BALPA!
You shouldn't bite the hand that puts the helicopter back together you know, sometimes you might need the 10,000 hours of training it takes (or did when I went through, 5 years at 2000 hours per year) to become a Licenced Engineer.
Horror box, the only thing companies worry about safety wise, is what is seen by the public. Everyone wants the pilots to be well rested and fully qualified, but nobody gives a hoot about the mechanic doing 11 hour days 6 days a week for 7 months straight (I must admit the money was good, but I was a bit tired towards the end!) and yes, that was in the UK with a major offshore helicopter company. There are two standards in aviation safety. One for the people that are seen with the helicopters, and one for those other people that nobody wants to be seen with.
Yes, the fate of the passengers is in the pilots hands, but there are times when the pilots fate is in the mechanics hands. I never could understand the mentality behind the big payrise for a certain offshore company in the UK a few years back, when the money for it was taken from the payrise the mechanics were supposed to get, but didn't because the company couldn't afford it any longer after giving the pilots the payrise demanded by BALPA!
You shouldn't bite the hand that puts the helicopter back together you know, sometimes you might need the 10,000 hours of training it takes (or did when I went through, 5 years at 2000 hours per year) to become a Licenced Engineer.
Horror box, the only thing companies worry about safety wise, is what is seen by the public. Everyone wants the pilots to be well rested and fully qualified, but nobody gives a hoot about the mechanic doing 11 hour days 6 days a week for 7 months straight (I must admit the money was good, but I was a bit tired towards the end!) and yes, that was in the UK with a major offshore helicopter company. There are two standards in aviation safety. One for the people that are seen with the helicopters, and one for those other people that nobody wants to be seen with.
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Apache pilots don't get paid as much as the taxi drivers on the NS because the oil and gas industry doesn't need helicopter gunships very often.
There is no comparison between two complete opposites end of the spectrum and the money paid to one or the other isn't the only factor to consider. What about the job satisfaction an Apache pilot feels after successful life saving missions? Same as the "high" from another 4 platforms manned up for customer X? Not quite. Also consider many other possible benefits an Apache pilot might enjoy (generous pension, state of the art technology, flying something most pilots would love to just sit in).
I think part of the reason for the higher pay in the offshore environment is to ease the boredom of the routine VFR out and back day in, day out. It's not very often NS pilots finer skills are called upon but that doesnt mean they are less able than an Apache pilot.
I don't know many offshore pilots who wouldn't love the opportunity to fly SAR, EMS, Police etc but they are working offshore for higher incomes to provide for families or to pay off the huge debts accrued by getting themselves trained in the first place. How much do Apache pilots pay for their ratings and licences? Nothing because the taxi drivers paying their 40% tax rates pay for it.
I'm not in any way knocking the job the Apache pilots do, particulary in the situation in Afghanistan, but it's so far from NS flying and with so many differences it's impossible to compare the value of one against the other. If you want to let me see how it feels to be an Apache pilot I'll happily come and have a go. You can fly to the XXX for me anytime.
There is no comparison between two complete opposites end of the spectrum and the money paid to one or the other isn't the only factor to consider. What about the job satisfaction an Apache pilot feels after successful life saving missions? Same as the "high" from another 4 platforms manned up for customer X? Not quite. Also consider many other possible benefits an Apache pilot might enjoy (generous pension, state of the art technology, flying something most pilots would love to just sit in).
I think part of the reason for the higher pay in the offshore environment is to ease the boredom of the routine VFR out and back day in, day out. It's not very often NS pilots finer skills are called upon but that doesnt mean they are less able than an Apache pilot.
I don't know many offshore pilots who wouldn't love the opportunity to fly SAR, EMS, Police etc but they are working offshore for higher incomes to provide for families or to pay off the huge debts accrued by getting themselves trained in the first place. How much do Apache pilots pay for their ratings and licences? Nothing because the taxi drivers paying their 40% tax rates pay for it.
I'm not in any way knocking the job the Apache pilots do, particulary in the situation in Afghanistan, but it's so far from NS flying and with so many differences it's impossible to compare the value of one against the other. If you want to let me see how it feels to be an Apache pilot I'll happily come and have a go. You can fly to the XXX for me anytime.
Last edited by The Governor; 16th Nov 2009 at 05:03.
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Nooby, no arguments!!
There would be the small point that I get to fry with the pax while you get to look into the smokin' hole in the event of...........
There would be the small point that I get to fry with the pax while you get to look into the smokin' hole in the event of...........
Mitchaa:
You couldn't be more right. thing is, we're getting paid fairly well for it but i'd like more because it's so boring. Any monkey can be trained to fly offshore. What's demanding about it?
Actually, having had a think about it, why don't the offshore companies just get rid of co-pilots, make all Captains training captains, and do the whole Ryanair thing and have the co-pilots pay to sit up front. That would help profits, the job is easy enough that it can and was done single pilot anyway.
As for the Engineers, well, A), I think they do a fantastic job with what they have, and B) they aren't as badly treated as some may think. Give me their roster any day of the week, starting tomorrow.
Let's not kid ourselves here, offshore pilots are glorified taxi drivers, they turn and burn, wait on the passengers boarding, pull collective, advance cyclic, fly straight and level, and then land on a platform in the middle of the North sea, passengers get off, new 1's come on and then off again into the same old boring routine. You may get challenged a little when its dark, or there is a little bad weather but who doesn't get challenged in their jobs?
Actually, having had a think about it, why don't the offshore companies just get rid of co-pilots, make all Captains training captains, and do the whole Ryanair thing and have the co-pilots pay to sit up front. That would help profits, the job is easy enough that it can and was done single pilot anyway.
As for the Engineers, well, A), I think they do a fantastic job with what they have, and B) they aren't as badly treated as some may think. Give me their roster any day of the week, starting tomorrow.
Last edited by helimutt; 15th Nov 2009 at 19:23. Reason: asked to for obvious reasons
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This thread is a fantastic and simple lesson in economics
Your job's worth is a function of:
1. The value which the purchasor of the good or service ascribes to it;
2. The volume of supply versus demand; and
3. Imperfection of information in the market place.
Whether an Apache driver or a N Sea driver is worth more pay, or has a harder job, or anything else is not the relevant point. On this earth, at this time, market forces have determined that this is what each gets paid.
It isn't "fair"
It isn't "just"
It isn't "right"
It just is
Your job's worth is a function of:
1. The value which the purchasor of the good or service ascribes to it;
2. The volume of supply versus demand; and
3. Imperfection of information in the market place.
Whether an Apache driver or a N Sea driver is worth more pay, or has a harder job, or anything else is not the relevant point. On this earth, at this time, market forces have determined that this is what each gets paid.
It isn't "fair"
It isn't "just"
It isn't "right"
It just is
Iver, Wholeheartedly agree! 
My apologies if anyone read my previous post before editing. I let Mitchaa get to me at a time when i'm slightly tired! He's obviously on the bottom rung of some ladder with very little chance of climbing it. Oh dear.
My apologies if anyone read my previous post before editing. I let Mitchaa get to me at a time when i'm slightly tired! He's obviously on the bottom rung of some ladder with very little chance of climbing it. Oh dear.
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What a bizarre thread!
Are premiership footballers well paid or not?!
There is also a lot of talk about taxi drivers - I think you'll find many real taxi drivers earn a small fortune but you may not find it reflected in their tax returns.
If anyone is green eyed at what heli drivers earn they should either get a licence and chase a job, or get a grip.
Are premiership footballers well paid or not?!
There is also a lot of talk about taxi drivers - I think you'll find many real taxi drivers earn a small fortune but you may not find it reflected in their tax returns.
If anyone is green eyed at what heli drivers earn they should either get a licence and chase a job, or get a grip.
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There seems to be several camps here:
a) Engineers still (I have been listening to it for years) complaining about the salaries commanded by pilots.
b) Civilian trained pilots complaining about the free training for military pilots.
c) Military pilots complaining about the lack of ground crew to carry their bags. (not happened yet but I am sure it will)
The world is full of wingers. IMHO.
a) Engineers still (I have been listening to it for years) complaining about the salaries commanded by pilots.
b) Civilian trained pilots complaining about the free training for military pilots.
c) Military pilots complaining about the lack of ground crew to carry their bags. (not happened yet but I am sure it will)
The world is full of wingers. IMHO.
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There are two standards in aviation safety. One for the people that are seen with the helicopters, and one for those other people that nobody wants to be seen with.
There is also a lot of talk about taxi drivers - I think you'll find many real taxi drivers earn a small fortune but you may not find it reflected in their tax returns.
Very true, the guys and gals swinging the wrenches on helicopters are the unsung heroes of the industry. Over worked, usually underpaid and largely unappreciated
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salaries
The amount of money paid is purely economics - nothing at all to do with the intrinsic value of the work. If it were a fair world, teachers, nurses and paramedics (just 3 jobs of the top of my head) would be paid far more than any pilot - or footballer for that matter.
I think that pilots and engineers should be on the same pay.
The offshore pay increase was purely down to the threat of strike action about 8 years ago. Nothing to do with the demands/dangers/skills of the job. When Scotia was formed, and Bond were forced out of the north sea for 3 years back in 2003/4, there were only 2 UK offshore helicopter companies. This gave the pilots the oportunity to make a stand over pay, which had gradually been eroded over the preceeding years. Like any job, the offshore pilots get paid what they can force the companies to pay them : it's no more complex than that, and certainly doesn't indicate any value to the work beyond the monetary one.
Andy
I think that pilots and engineers should be on the same pay.
The offshore pay increase was purely down to the threat of strike action about 8 years ago. Nothing to do with the demands/dangers/skills of the job. When Scotia was formed, and Bond were forced out of the north sea for 3 years back in 2003/4, there were only 2 UK offshore helicopter companies. This gave the pilots the oportunity to make a stand over pay, which had gradually been eroded over the preceeding years. Like any job, the offshore pilots get paid what they can force the companies to pay them : it's no more complex than that, and certainly doesn't indicate any value to the work beyond the monetary one.
Andy
Avoid imitations
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c) Military pilots complaining about the lack of ground crew to carry their bags. (not happened yet but I am sure it will)
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The amount of money paid is purely economics - nothing at all to do with the intrinsic value of the work. If it were a fair world, teachers, nurses and paramedics (just 3 jobs of the top of my head) would be paid far more than any pilot - or footballer for that matter.
The three occupations cited tend to have a high degree of government involvement in their pay which will massively influence the market rate. The high percentage of females also affects them.
As discussed elsewhere, normalising salary in terms of risk, benefits (holidays, pension, (license) insurance), taxation, training costs, etc is useful at times.
And to be specific, the values quoted are Median - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - i.e. line everyone up in pay order and take the person in the middle.
If you want a challenge, explain Vet's pay!
