Helicopter shared ownership
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Not in the right place
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Questions on Helicopter shared ownership
Dear fellow PPruners,
As a means to building up hrs I'm currently looking into shared ownership as an option.
I've been googling around and it looks like the cheapest option is to have a second hand R22 or 300Cb shipped from the States.
Any words of wisdom concerning registration,operating and maintenance costs involved, insurance etc. are greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Troch
As a means to building up hrs I'm currently looking into shared ownership as an option.
I've been googling around and it looks like the cheapest option is to have a second hand R22 or 300Cb shipped from the States.
Any words of wisdom concerning registration,operating and maintenance costs involved, insurance etc. are greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Troch
Last edited by Trochilidae; 29th Oct 2009 at 10:29. Reason: other thread same name
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm an advocate of the ownership option, if you can go down that route. It means it's your helicopter, available whenever or wherever you want it. You will acquire a close personal affinity and feel for it, with the reassurance that everything is as you want it, to your standards.
Of course there are added costs, commitments and responsibilities, but these are viable if you are doing c.100hr + p.a.
If you can source a 300'C' it is worth the extra, even though it might be an earlier model than the CBi. The extra performance makes a big difference in terms of handling and safety. However, good ones are sought after. Another option might be an Enstrom 280fx.
US$/UK£ exchange rates still make it viable to import from the States, etc. and if you are really quick you may be able to save the vat by going through Denmark.
Alternatively, there may be some bargains and less hassle buying direct in the uk (assuming that's where you are based).
Of course there are added costs, commitments and responsibilities, but these are viable if you are doing c.100hr + p.a.
If you can source a 300'C' it is worth the extra, even though it might be an earlier model than the CBi. The extra performance makes a big difference in terms of handling and safety. However, good ones are sought after. Another option might be an Enstrom 280fx.
US$/UK£ exchange rates still make it viable to import from the States, etc. and if you are really quick you may be able to save the vat by going through Denmark.
Alternatively, there may be some bargains and less hassle buying direct in the uk (assuming that's where you are based).
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: east sussex
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low Cost Turbine options
have you considered an Alouette II
great machine for the price of a cheap 44 (say £100-£120K for one with mid hours). V low insurance costs
low running cost, equal less than a 44 ?
a few in UK on Hungarian reg
you will need to Hungarian type rating but otherwise straight forward.
the machine can be maintained in the UK, they are V reliable, most comps make time, no known vices
down side ?
Slow (100Kts) for a turbine, loud (oft said a device for converting fuel to noise), thirsty (160+ litrs) per hr, mostly are ex Military so green
Up side
why have a piston ?
3:15 on tank full at 100kts
turbine time at Piston costs
5 seats
food for thought ? PM (how does that work ?) if you fancy a test fly - based nr Birmingham
(I am biased, I have flown one for 300+ hrs, and now own 4, I used to have an Enstrom, would not go back)
great machine for the price of a cheap 44 (say £100-£120K for one with mid hours). V low insurance costs
low running cost, equal less than a 44 ?
a few in UK on Hungarian reg
you will need to Hungarian type rating but otherwise straight forward.
the machine can be maintained in the UK, they are V reliable, most comps make time, no known vices
down side ?
Slow (100Kts) for a turbine, loud (oft said a device for converting fuel to noise), thirsty (160+ litrs) per hr, mostly are ex Military so green
Up side
why have a piston ?
3:15 on tank full at 100kts
turbine time at Piston costs
5 seats
food for thought ? PM (how does that work ?) if you fancy a test fly - based nr Birmingham
(I am biased, I have flown one for 300+ hrs, and now own 4, I used to have an Enstrom, would not go back)
Enstrompilot
How can i find out more about them and any chance of a picture?
Understand their thirsty but whats the overall hourly operating costs like?
Would be intersted in doing a few hours to try one if possible?
cheers
BG
How can i find out more about them and any chance of a picture?
Understand their thirsty but whats the overall hourly operating costs like?
Would be intersted in doing a few hours to try one if possible?
cheers
BG
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: england
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if budget and running costs are your main concern,
then don't bother looking at anything other than a R22.
With a turbine, you are supposed to pay the full duty on Avtur for private use. The law came in about 12 months ago now.
This pushes the price of a litre of Avtur up to about £1.20, plus VAT.
Whether you declare your flight to be a business flight (and therefore qualify for the much lower price of Avtur) is another thing, of course.
As for other piston helicopters, anything and everything will be more expensive than a R22. A R44 wil cost you approximately double what a R22 costs you to own and run.
And if the mission is hours building, you don't need to get anywhere quickly!
It's not just fuel burn - you have to factor in maintenance costs and purchase and re-sale values.
You'll pick up a Enstrom 28 for less than 30 grand, but I suggest you ask any maintenance outfit that services all types of light helicopters and see what they say about the maintenance costs of a "cheap" Enstrom.
hope this helps,
Big Ls.
With a turbine, you are supposed to pay the full duty on Avtur for private use. The law came in about 12 months ago now.
This pushes the price of a litre of Avtur up to about £1.20, plus VAT.
Whether you declare your flight to be a business flight (and therefore qualify for the much lower price of Avtur) is another thing, of course.
As for other piston helicopters, anything and everything will be more expensive than a R22. A R44 wil cost you approximately double what a R22 costs you to own and run.
And if the mission is hours building, you don't need to get anywhere quickly!
It's not just fuel burn - you have to factor in maintenance costs and purchase and re-sale values.
You'll pick up a Enstrom 28 for less than 30 grand, but I suggest you ask any maintenance outfit that services all types of light helicopters and see what they say about the maintenance costs of a "cheap" Enstrom.
hope this helps,
Big Ls.
Hughes / Schweizer 300 maybe better than an R22 ?
Hi There
I recently looked into this a lot. I went through all the options and the thing that kept coming back to me was how unprofessional some shared aircraft groups were and (on the other hand) how some of the more professional groups charged for the privilege.
I didn't want to end up part of a group that owned an aircraft on the ground that couldn't be flown and nobody took care of.
The obvious thing about shared ownership is the cost per hour is lower and the upfront purchase price doesn't really depreciate, therefore it's possible to buy and sell your share when you finished for the same amount.
Everybody I spoke to kept coming back to the same group G-BOXT - a Hughes 300C (not CBi), stating that it was well run and there were no management fees. The group is extremely religious about maintenance and adhering to CAA regs.
The costs are substantially cheaper than learning to fly (or self-fly hire) with a commercial organization - about £100 an hour less. There is a standing charge of £100 pm to cover hangar, insurance, block landing fees, online booking website etc.
So if you fly more than one hour a month on average you are saving money.
The H300 is comparable with the costs of flying an R22, the way that G-BOXT is charged out, is per hour wet.
The only problem for me was that there were only four members of the group, which meant the shares were £20K each.
As a result of several discussions it was agreed that all of the members would split their shares and therefore each sell 1/8th (or 1/2 their current interest).
I bought one 1/8th share and another share was sold. There are currently 2 shares for sale.
Being a member of a shared ownership group does have the potential than an unexpected bill comes in and it has to be shared between the members, but the flip side is that
I'm a big guy (6ft 3in and over 17st), so that brings the R22 capabilities into sharp releif. Obviously I have never flown an R22 but people that fly and instruct on both normally say they prefer the H300 - and students tend to need less hours to pass PPL.
They also say the Enstrom 280 is probably the easiest to fly but also doesn't have the same power/useful load as the H300.
So I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a R22" maybe a bit blinkered or even imprecise, perhaps I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a single engined piston, such as a R22 H300 B47 Enstrom280 or similar"
Also remember that TRTO conversions to R22/R44 are available everywhere and it's easy to get time in an R22 (if you aren't a giant like me) but flying in a H300 or B47 gives you another string to your bow. H300 instructors are a bit more in demand than R22 instructors - and you can cary 2 passengers in a H300 (as long as they aren't giants as well).
If you are interested in flying G-BOXT, I'm sure I can arrange a trial flight/check ride with my instructor (Ray Jones).
I recently looked into this a lot. I went through all the options and the thing that kept coming back to me was how unprofessional some shared aircraft groups were and (on the other hand) how some of the more professional groups charged for the privilege.
I didn't want to end up part of a group that owned an aircraft on the ground that couldn't be flown and nobody took care of.
The obvious thing about shared ownership is the cost per hour is lower and the upfront purchase price doesn't really depreciate, therefore it's possible to buy and sell your share when you finished for the same amount.
Everybody I spoke to kept coming back to the same group G-BOXT - a Hughes 300C (not CBi), stating that it was well run and there were no management fees. The group is extremely religious about maintenance and adhering to CAA regs.
The costs are substantially cheaper than learning to fly (or self-fly hire) with a commercial organization - about £100 an hour less. There is a standing charge of £100 pm to cover hangar, insurance, block landing fees, online booking website etc.
So if you fly more than one hour a month on average you are saving money.
The H300 is comparable with the costs of flying an R22, the way that G-BOXT is charged out, is per hour wet.
The only problem for me was that there were only four members of the group, which meant the shares were £20K each.
As a result of several discussions it was agreed that all of the members would split their shares and therefore each sell 1/8th (or 1/2 their current interest).
I bought one 1/8th share and another share was sold. There are currently 2 shares for sale.
Being a member of a shared ownership group does have the potential than an unexpected bill comes in and it has to be shared between the members, but the flip side is that
I'm a big guy (6ft 3in and over 17st), so that brings the R22 capabilities into sharp releif. Obviously I have never flown an R22 but people that fly and instruct on both normally say they prefer the H300 - and students tend to need less hours to pass PPL.
They also say the Enstrom 280 is probably the easiest to fly but also doesn't have the same power/useful load as the H300.
So I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a R22" maybe a bit blinkered or even imprecise, perhaps I'd say "then don't bother looking at anything other than a single engined piston, such as a R22 H300 B47 Enstrom280 or similar"
Also remember that TRTO conversions to R22/R44 are available everywhere and it's easy to get time in an R22 (if you aren't a giant like me) but flying in a H300 or B47 gives you another string to your bow. H300 instructors are a bit more in demand than R22 instructors - and you can cary 2 passengers in a H300 (as long as they aren't giants as well).
If you are interested in flying G-BOXT, I'm sure I can arrange a trial flight/check ride with my instructor (Ray Jones).
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: east sussex
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi Bladegrabber
pics etc
Try entering Alouette II or HA-IDL , in Google , there is lots of history to be found on the web, HA-IDL is a 313B (the most updated version before the engine change to 318C) last AD was ? yrs ago ! (either no one cares or this is a very sorted machine !)
Hourly operating costs
depends on how you count things, the fuel cost range up from 56p/ltr if you own your own bowers to lots per litre if you visit airfields, the tax depends on if its personal or business flying.
The engine and major component reserve fund is much in the eyes of the beholder, but very few, if any, components are on calandar, only major items, engines, gearboxes, baldes etc are time limited, all with large allowances and all make time limits. Spares can be tricky/pricey to find quickly, but as most make life, planning ahead can make a huge difference. there are 4 or 5 co's world wide who hold big stocks (often ex of military users who built massive stock and have recently released to private hands). Blades and Engines are particularly hard to find, but they do come up sometimes, engine at E80-100 per hr remaining and blades at E5 per hr remaining.
Insurance (no hull) is a little as 1,000 Euro (my last E860) including 4 x pax.
Annual maint costs typically £3k, 50hr typicllay £500 (1-2 days). the whole thing is rock solid, does not use oil, just do the daily preflight lub and 'off you go'
being 3 blades it needs a big hangar, I built one at home (£4k).
I recon my Alouette cost half the cost of my last Enstrom F28F on same hrs basis
I find my real costs are £140-£160 phr based on 120 hr pa. this excludes main part life consumption (I have a v large parts stock I have collected over the yrs so have parts to keep flying as long as the CAA let me)
Re hours cant do self fly but come visit, either nr Birmingham or Eastbourne and come for a flight !
cheers
enstrom pilot
pics etc
Try entering Alouette II or HA-IDL , in Google , there is lots of history to be found on the web, HA-IDL is a 313B (the most updated version before the engine change to 318C) last AD was ? yrs ago ! (either no one cares or this is a very sorted machine !)
Hourly operating costs
depends on how you count things, the fuel cost range up from 56p/ltr if you own your own bowers to lots per litre if you visit airfields, the tax depends on if its personal or business flying.
The engine and major component reserve fund is much in the eyes of the beholder, but very few, if any, components are on calandar, only major items, engines, gearboxes, baldes etc are time limited, all with large allowances and all make time limits. Spares can be tricky/pricey to find quickly, but as most make life, planning ahead can make a huge difference. there are 4 or 5 co's world wide who hold big stocks (often ex of military users who built massive stock and have recently released to private hands). Blades and Engines are particularly hard to find, but they do come up sometimes, engine at E80-100 per hr remaining and blades at E5 per hr remaining.
Insurance (no hull) is a little as 1,000 Euro (my last E860) including 4 x pax.
Annual maint costs typically £3k, 50hr typicllay £500 (1-2 days). the whole thing is rock solid, does not use oil, just do the daily preflight lub and 'off you go'
being 3 blades it needs a big hangar, I built one at home (£4k).
I recon my Alouette cost half the cost of my last Enstrom F28F on same hrs basis
I find my real costs are £140-£160 phr based on 120 hr pa. this excludes main part life consumption (I have a v large parts stock I have collected over the yrs so have parts to keep flying as long as the CAA let me)
Re hours cant do self fly but come visit, either nr Birmingham or Eastbourne and come for a flight !
cheers
enstrom pilot
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: england
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is an R44 raven 2 with only 50 hours TTSN available in 1/4 shares to be hangered at Barton. 2 shares have already been taken I think it was around 50k each PM me if you want me to put you in contact with them
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The R22 might be cheaper and simpler to run than, say, a 300 - I've no idea. But the R22 has built in obsolescence after 12 years.
Aside from being a better helicopter, most 300s are 10, 20, 30, 40 years old and are often worth more now than they cost new - an important consideration in shared ownership.
Aside from being a better helicopter, most 300s are 10, 20, 30, 40 years old and are often worth more now than they cost new - an important consideration in shared ownership.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: london
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are solely interested in hour building, and maybe a bit of fun thrown in...have you considered buying your own Rotorway, they are without doubt the cheapest to own and operate ????
H269 maintenance.
In Ivor's case it may have been the maintenance facility as to the reason why the 300's he operated seemed to always be in the hangar.
Yes you do get some dog aircraft but from my experience the 300 has always been pretty damn reliable, however, I have flown good aircraft that have faults that can only be blamed on poor maintenance.
Don't forget an aircrafts reliability has a lot to do with the owners willingness to spend money and the organisation that maintains it.
Yes you do get some dog aircraft but from my experience the 300 has always been pretty damn reliable, however, I have flown good aircraft that have faults that can only be blamed on poor maintenance.
Don't forget an aircrafts reliability has a lot to do with the owners willingness to spend money and the organisation that maintains it.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 50
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all, I'm looking for shared ownership (R22/44 or pref. H269) down south, Wiltshire/Hampshire area, for hour building and leisure. I've searched a lot, but it seems most of them are further north... can anyone enlighten me as to why this may be? Or am I searching in the wrong places?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: swansea, wales
Age: 66
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
shared ownership
I did hear one guy moaning recently how he had a share in a chopper that a flight school also had a share in. Problem was according to him, the flight school amassed hours and hours on a mchine he feels he and others effectively subsidized them to do.
There may be some who would dispute this but I offer the story as given to me as a sort of thing to keep in mind.
There may be some who would dispute this but I offer the story as given to me as a sort of thing to keep in mind.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: england
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hours building in a rotorway?
Parasite Drag,
I think that when Troch says he wants to "hours build", he is not refering to how long it will take to construct a working, flyable helicopter.
In the case of a Rotorway that will be a lot of hours indeed.
(there's another thread for this, so nuff said).
As for Hughes 300 being as good, or better than a R22 I'll moderate what I said previously to:
"If you are under 14 stone, and/or under the age of 50 and/or less than 6ft tall, and the running costs of he helicopter are of paramount importance, then the R22 is the only aircraft to consider."
If you are of a bigger build, or coming to flying later in life, then the Hughes 300 and Enstrom 280 are excellent machines, especially for training, low-houred pilots and aerobatics.
But they will always cost more than a R22 to run."
Big Ls
I think that when Troch says he wants to "hours build", he is not refering to how long it will take to construct a working, flyable helicopter.
In the case of a Rotorway that will be a lot of hours indeed.
(there's another thread for this, so nuff said).
As for Hughes 300 being as good, or better than a R22 I'll moderate what I said previously to:
"If you are under 14 stone, and/or under the age of 50 and/or less than 6ft tall, and the running costs of he helicopter are of paramount importance, then the R22 is the only aircraft to consider."
If you are of a bigger build, or coming to flying later in life, then the Hughes 300 and Enstrom 280 are excellent machines, especially for training, low-houred pilots and aerobatics.
But they will always cost more than a R22 to run."
Big Ls
Well all i can say is that I run 3 x schweizers at my school here in Devon and they seem to stay in the air quite well. Example
one machine been away for 1 year and 300 hours ( leased to an hour builder)
Only unscheduled maintenance was one starter motor ( quality of todays is crap) and a mixture cable. All the rest was scheduled checks or part replacement.
The other 2 seem to be good, can only speak as I find
one machine been away for 1 year and 300 hours ( leased to an hour builder)
Only unscheduled maintenance was one starter motor ( quality of todays is crap) and a mixture cable. All the rest was scheduled checks or part replacement.
The other 2 seem to be good, can only speak as I find
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: london
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Biggles99, I can only guess your Rotorway comment was a humerous tongue-in-cheek thing....as there are numerous nice ready built machines for sale...
Jtobias....loving your negativity.....the issue you allude to will be cease to be an issue soon...
Jtobias....loving your negativity.....the issue you allude to will be cease to be an issue soon...