Validity dates - LPC - Timezones?
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Validity dates - LPC - Timezones?
On whose midnight does a rating expire?
Local time ?
GMT?
BST?
Maybe the timezone where the validity period was established?
Is a rating expired in Australia still current in Los Angeles?
Is there a statutorily correct answer to this...?
(........ Does anyone care?)
AnFI
Local time ?
GMT?
BST?
Maybe the timezone where the validity period was established?
Is a rating expired in Australia still current in Los Angeles?
Is there a statutorily correct answer to this...?
(........ Does anyone care?)
AnFI
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Timezone where the licence was issued would make sense but it's only a day (at the most) away from being invalid anyway?
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Academic, I think. but if you had to guess at the intent of the regulators then the rating validity period would be measured against the clock of the place where it was issued. The reasons for choosing a year's validity may be quite arbitrary, but a year is still a year wherever you end it !
Perfectly acceptable to continue flying in a time zone that makes the check current, even if has expired in the time zone of issue (subject to the licence itself being acceptable to the authorities in the current time zone!)
However this is only valid when flying on true tracks from 180 clockwise through to 360 degrees. Flight on other tracks will result in gradual fading of the relevant signatures.
Regards
TeeS
However this is only valid when flying on true tracks from 180 clockwise through to 360 degrees. Flight on other tracks will result in gradual fading of the relevant signatures.
Regards
TeeS
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(........ Does anyone care?)
I don't anybody is that bothered by a few hours here and there
Academic, I think.
regards CF
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YES CF - of course you are right, it is important...
.... you can't just 'not care' whether your rating is valid or not !
.... so there is no agreed answer then?
(surely if the date is still a current date where you fly then it must be ok?)
AND ANOTHER THING !
"VALID UNTIL" ? until is NOT inclusive - so why is a day 'subtracted' - (effectively twice!)
.... so there is no agreed answer then?
(surely if the date is still a current date where you fly then it must be ok?)
AND ANOTHER THING !
"VALID UNTIL" ? until is NOT inclusive - so why is a day 'subtracted' - (effectively twice!)
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It's a good question, and nobody seems to have the definitive answer. I think you could make a good case for your interpretation, since it is after all what it says on your ratings page. But at the same time certainly all the UK and JAR legislation refers to years from date of issue, and the clock on that must surely start and stop ticking at the place of issue. I do appreciate that gives six monthly OPCs an extra hour's validity in the winter, and one hour less in the summer thanks to daylight savings time !
Re. your point about subtraction, for a new rating in the UK at least, you get from the moment you've passed the test, till midnight the day before a year's hence. The only bit you're 'losing' is from midnight to the moment you pass the test, and if you're worried about that, then schedule your checks for the earliest possible moment in the day ! Thereafter (again in the UK), you can revalidate up to three months in advance of the expiry with no loss to the original expiry date. In other words you're actually gaining three months rather than losing anything.
Re. your point about subtraction, for a new rating in the UK at least, you get from the moment you've passed the test, till midnight the day before a year's hence. The only bit you're 'losing' is from midnight to the moment you pass the test, and if you're worried about that, then schedule your checks for the earliest possible moment in the day ! Thereafter (again in the UK), you can revalidate up to three months in advance of the expiry with no loss to the original expiry date. In other words you're actually gaining three months rather than losing anything.
Last edited by puntosaurus; 14th Oct 2009 at 22:22.
Punto, I think his point was that 'until' is not inclusive, so a rating valid 'until the 30th', will expire at midnight on the 29th and could not be exercised on the 30th. Personally, I think the expression is a contraction of "valid until (the end of) the 30th." That is probably a more important topic for discussion than the time zone issue!
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Imprecise legislative noise.....
212 ,man - yes that is the point! and you are almost definately right right !
..... and it is more important since no-one seems to know when their ratings are valid till !
It must be a contraction of
"valid until (the end of) the 30th."
Unfortunately the contraction changes the meaning to "expires midnight 29th" !
It is also difficult distinguish it from the contraction of the phrase:
"valid until (sometime around) the 30th"
or
"valid until the 30th (plus 24hours)"
..... and it is more important since no-one seems to know when their ratings are valid till !
It must be a contraction of
"valid until (the end of) the 30th."
Unfortunately the contraction changes the meaning to "expires midnight 29th" !
It is also difficult distinguish it from the contraction of the phrase:
"valid until (sometime around) the 30th"
or
"valid until the 30th (plus 24hours)"
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Sorry for missing your point, but as Saki said "a little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation" !
The phrase 'valid until' as used in UK ratings IS inclusive. A rating valid until 30th, is valid until midnight on 30th, not midnight on 29th.
I'm not defending the CAA's grammar because I acknowledge it has the potential for confusion, and have asked this very question in the past as a result. Try negating the statement 'valid until 30th', and I suggest you'd probably say 'not valid after 30th'. That would more clearly point to the intended meaning.
The phrase 'valid until' as used in UK ratings IS inclusive. A rating valid until 30th, is valid until midnight on 30th, not midnight on 29th.
I'm not defending the CAA's grammar because I acknowledge it has the potential for confusion, and have asked this very question in the past as a result. Try negating the statement 'valid until 30th', and I suggest you'd probably say 'not valid after 30th'. That would more clearly point to the intended meaning.
Last edited by puntosaurus; 14th Oct 2009 at 17:40.
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puntosaurus and 212man are clearly right
forgetting the time zone thing, in lasors 2008 section F page 4(validity periods of ratings) from the CAA website its says:
"therefore a rating issued on, say 15th august 2006 will remain valid until 14th august 2007"
which is a year, if it was only to the 13th it wouldnt be a year
and we know ratings are for a year because it says so in the same para
it makes no sense at all to interpret this as meaning until close of play on 13th august when it clearly means 23:59:59s on the 14th, you guys are trying to make something simple complicated again
regards CF
forgetting the time zone thing, in lasors 2008 section F page 4(validity periods of ratings) from the CAA website its says:
"therefore a rating issued on, say 15th august 2006 will remain valid until 14th august 2007"
which is a year, if it was only to the 13th it wouldnt be a year
and we know ratings are for a year because it says so in the same parait makes no sense at all to interpret this as meaning until close of play on 13th august when it clearly means 23:59:59s on the 14th, you guys are trying to make something simple complicated again
regards CF
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So, does that mean if my UK issued JAA licence expires at 23:59:59s on the 14th, I am still OK to fly in the US, say Seattle with an 8 hour time difference,on the 14th at 17:00 local time?
There doesn't appear to be a definitive answer. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be valid but that's just a guess.
Cheers
Whirls
There doesn't appear to be a definitive answer. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be valid but that's just a guess.
Cheers
Whirls
.
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CF -wrong
NO - CF you just don't get it do you.?
Untill the 14th does not include the 14th therefore untill the 14th means, in English level6, untill the start of the 14th NOT the END of the 14th - you must work for the ***!? - You use a different kind of English...?
Edit to remove ID info (sorry)
Untill the 14th does not include the 14th therefore untill the 14th means, in English level6, untill the start of the 14th NOT the END of the 14th - you must work for the ***!? - You use a different kind of English...?
Edit to remove ID info (sorry)
Last edited by AnFI; 16th Oct 2009 at 08:33.
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AnFI,
no i dont get it, i can only assume you are in wind up mode now
15th august, date of check = 1st day
14th august, date of expiry = 365th day
so thats 1 year isnt it. 13th august would be 364 days (not a year)
what we need is Flying lawyer to help us out here.
EDIT - i have just realised that AnFI was mixed up with that luton/harrods handling row last year, so its obviously a waste of time continuing any further with this, as you sound like someone who would insist that an encyclopedia was wrong if it disagreed with your point of view.
regards CF
no i dont get it, i can only assume you are in wind up mode now
15th august, date of check = 1st day
14th august, date of expiry = 365th day
so thats 1 year isnt it. 13th august would be 364 days (not a year)
what we need is Flying lawyer to help us out here.
EDIT - i have just realised that AnFI was mixed up with that luton/harrods handling row last year, so its obviously a waste of time continuing any further with this, as you sound like someone who would insist that an encyclopedia was wrong if it disagreed with your point of view.
regards CF
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 16th Oct 2009 at 00:29.
Whirls, yes you should still be able to fly in the US as JAA license validations should be signed up until the end of the month of issue. So a check signed on the first should be validated to the end of the month a year on.
JAA license validations should be signed up until the end of the month of issue.
Regardless, doesn't address the point being raised by the questioner - have another read through the responses...
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Hi CF
CF - I mean no disrespect -sorry if that was i bit too firmly stated.
I do understand that the rating is intended to be a year...
The point was whether "valid until" was being used correctly....
..... It would be good to get this right (wouldn't it?)
AnFI
I do understand that the rating is intended to be a year...
The point was whether "valid until" was being used correctly....
..... It would be good to get this right (wouldn't it?)
AnFI