South Carolina EMS Helicopter Crash
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Originally Posted by the link mixing lever offered
• The facts indicate that human error accounts for 77% of all HEMS accidents.
The easiest way to increase situational awareness is to put another aviator’s
brain in the cockpit.
The easiest way to increase situational awareness is to put another aviator’s
brain in the cockpit.
I tend to agree that two people up front certainly helps however why does it have to be two pilots?
Many operators (including several here in Australia - if not the majority) operate twin engine IFR with 1 pilot and 1 trained crew person in the left (winch operator/crewman/paramedic/whatever). That left seat occupant acts kind of like a non flying co pilot providing assistance with checklists, wx radar, GPS, approach plates, monitoring of attitude/ROD/airspeed etc etc. This also gives the guy in the right the ability to load shed a little when things start to get really busy or difficult on those dark rainy nights.
I also know of several occasions where the left seat occupant has expressed concern with the weather/mission or brought a wandering flight parameter to the attention of the pilot probably saving a pants changing moment later on. They do CRM as well.
Anyway just a different thought.
Turkey
Many operators (including several here in Australia - if not the majority) operate twin engine IFR with 1 pilot and 1 trained crew person in the left (winch operator/crewman/paramedic/whatever). That left seat occupant acts kind of like a non flying co pilot providing assistance with checklists, wx radar, GPS, approach plates, monitoring of attitude/ROD/airspeed etc etc. This also gives the guy in the right the ability to load shed a little when things start to get really busy or difficult on those dark rainy nights.
I also know of several occasions where the left seat occupant has expressed concern with the weather/mission or brought a wandering flight parameter to the attention of the pilot probably saving a pants changing moment later on. They do CRM as well.
Anyway just a different thought.
Turkey
Thread Starter
Turkey,
Upon picking up the patient....the extra crewmember moves to the rear of the aircraft and gets busy doing their primary job....thus half the time you are still by your lonesome.
I don't suppose the medical folks would like to have a Helicopter Pilot shift to the rear and help them do their job then move forward to the cockpit upon picking up the patient now would they?
Upon picking up the patient....the extra crewmember moves to the rear of the aircraft and gets busy doing their primary job....thus half the time you are still by your lonesome.
I don't suppose the medical folks would like to have a Helicopter Pilot shift to the rear and help them do their job then move forward to the cockpit upon picking up the patient now would they?
Our operation in Australia is similar to "turkeys" and uses the crewman as he describes. Although ours sits up front almost 100% of the time.
Only moves to the rear for winching and approaching unknown landing areas.
They also attend simulator training with the pilots and develop sound CRM practices.
The medical staff have their job and the aircrew have theirs.
Works well.
Only moves to the rear for winching and approaching unknown landing areas.
They also attend simulator training with the pilots and develop sound CRM practices.
The medical staff have their job and the aircrew have theirs.
Works well.
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joe, just out of interest, how often do you do simulator, and where? USA I presume. Often hear the Latrobe boys going over whilst curled up in bed and thinking "I'm glad its you and not me out on a night like this". Do a great top notch job, and safely.
Upon picking up the patient....the extra crewmember moves to the rear of the aircraft and gets busy doing their primary job....thus half the time you are still by your lonesome.
Thread Starter
How much more does it cost for a pilot over the crewman?
I assume you have a full two man medical crew in addition to the front seat crew?
If you pick up two patients that demand medical care are you equipped to do that and have that winch operator/front seat guy back in the pilot seat helping?
Most Bell 412 EMS aircraft in the USA are crewed by one pilot, a paramedic and a nurse....and are patient limited by the level of care needed by the patients. Two serious patients are the limit.....if a third is carried usually a ground medical person goes along on the ride back to the hospital and tends the third less critical patient.
How do you guys handle multiple casualty operations?
I assume you have a full two man medical crew in addition to the front seat crew?
If you pick up two patients that demand medical care are you equipped to do that and have that winch operator/front seat guy back in the pilot seat helping?
Most Bell 412 EMS aircraft in the USA are crewed by one pilot, a paramedic and a nurse....and are patient limited by the level of care needed by the patients. Two serious patients are the limit.....if a third is carried usually a ground medical person goes along on the ride back to the hospital and tends the third less critical patient.
How do you guys handle multiple casualty operations?
Crewman cost vs the pilot: the advantage is that we don't need that extra position (additional pilot + crewman) in the aircraft and we can still conduct winch/SAR ops in addition to the EMS role. This also helps out with performance.
Crewman/winch op in front seat. Paramedic and emergency medicine doc in the back....two critical care patients.
Turkey
Crewman/winch op in front seat. Paramedic and emergency medicine doc in the back....two critical care patients.
Turkey
Good question. I am not sure but I think it is fair to say considerably more.
Yes. 2 Paramedics for accident scene jobs and 1 doctor and 1 nurse for a transfer between hospitals.
Yes. We regularly carry 2 or more accident patients and usually only one patient inter hospital.
Initially by the 2 Paramedics who are assisted by on scene Ambulance and other emergency services. As stated above this regularly is 2 patients. If required a doctor or additional aircraft are responded.
I assume you have a full two man medical crew in addition to the front seat crew?
If you pick up two patients that demand medical care are you equipped to do that and have that winch operator/front seat guy back in the pilot seat helping?
How do you guys handle multiple casualty operations?
Thread Starter
With a Medium Aircraft I can see how that would work....but with BK's, BO's, and similar sized aircraft then it gets a bit harder to do....as you would do much as US EMS units do....two med crew and one pilot....with the front seat med crew shifting to the cabin upon arrival leaving the pilot up front alone for the return trip....it would appear.
With a Medium Aircraft I can see how that would work....but with BK's, BO's, and similar sized aircraft then it gets a bit harder to do....as you would do much as US EMS units do....two med crew and one pilot....with the front seat med crew shifting to the cabin upon arrival leaving the pilot up front alone for the return trip....it would appear.
In fact this crewing philosophy has been adopted for many years and applies to singles as well. B206L & B407.
Last edited by joe_bloggs; 2nd Oct 2009 at 03:11.
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A few notes if you will.
First, thunderstorms in the vicinity. In North and South Carolina thunderstorms are a just about a daily fact of life at least 6 months of the year. Our answer is downloadable weather in our BK-117. Gives me any where from real time to usually up to 6 minute old 'map' view of radar, storm cell activity and lightning strikes right in the cockpit. I actually prefer it over airborne radar.
Second VFR into IMC at night. It's not an "if" it's a "when". I don't care what your minimums are, who has to approve the flight or what '3 to say go, one to say no' crap you have...if you fly at night enough....you are going to encounter IMC...at least in coastal Carolina you are.
The outfits that require an instrument ticket of their pilots and don't demand currency are ridiculous. It's total BS. We require instrument currency and an IPC and actual instrument time annually. And half that 'hood time' will be at night because that's when inadvertent IMC is most likely to happen. And if at all possible...that IPC is done at night.
Management response to an inadvertent IMC episode is for future avoidance only. If the pilot met minimums for launch he has absolutely no fear of anything except a congratulations for getting the 'chestnuts out of the fire'. I would 100 times rather the pilot climb up into the 'system' than try to re-establish VMC and scud-run back in. The current GPS approaches are incredibly easy to do.
We also only hire helo pilots with lots of actual instrument time...which usually mean dual rated. I got more instrument experience in one summer flying canceled checks all night in a BE-58 than in 30 years in Army helicopters. Oh and more thunderstorm dodging too. (I frankly find a BK-117 as easy to fly single pilot IFR as the Bonanza I owned for several years.)
We also pay 50% more than the going rate...so good pilots stay around and don't begrudge the hours they have to put in to maintain proficiency. As can be expected our turn over rate is near zero. This allows us to put all our training effort and dollars into pilots we already have.
First, thunderstorms in the vicinity. In North and South Carolina thunderstorms are a just about a daily fact of life at least 6 months of the year. Our answer is downloadable weather in our BK-117. Gives me any where from real time to usually up to 6 minute old 'map' view of radar, storm cell activity and lightning strikes right in the cockpit. I actually prefer it over airborne radar.
Second VFR into IMC at night. It's not an "if" it's a "when". I don't care what your minimums are, who has to approve the flight or what '3 to say go, one to say no' crap you have...if you fly at night enough....you are going to encounter IMC...at least in coastal Carolina you are.
The outfits that require an instrument ticket of their pilots and don't demand currency are ridiculous. It's total BS. We require instrument currency and an IPC and actual instrument time annually. And half that 'hood time' will be at night because that's when inadvertent IMC is most likely to happen. And if at all possible...that IPC is done at night.
Management response to an inadvertent IMC episode is for future avoidance only. If the pilot met minimums for launch he has absolutely no fear of anything except a congratulations for getting the 'chestnuts out of the fire'. I would 100 times rather the pilot climb up into the 'system' than try to re-establish VMC and scud-run back in. The current GPS approaches are incredibly easy to do.
We also only hire helo pilots with lots of actual instrument time...which usually mean dual rated. I got more instrument experience in one summer flying canceled checks all night in a BE-58 than in 30 years in Army helicopters. Oh and more thunderstorm dodging too. (I frankly find a BK-117 as easy to fly single pilot IFR as the Bonanza I owned for several years.)
We also pay 50% more than the going rate...so good pilots stay around and don't begrudge the hours they have to put in to maintain proficiency. As can be expected our turn over rate is near zero. This allows us to put all our training effort and dollars into pilots we already have.
Everything is under control.
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Helicopter Lacked Safety Features, Authorities Say
The South Carolina helicopter did not have night-vision equipment or a special system to warn the crew it was flying too close to obstacles or the ground, said Peter Knudson, spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board.
The helicopter also did not have autopilot, which would keep it level and on course even if the pilot became disoriented, Knudson said in response to questions from The Washington Post. The NTSB has urged medical helicopter programs to adopt each of those features, concluding their use could have prevented some previous accidents.
The helicopter also did not have autopilot, which would keep it level and on course even if the pilot became disoriented, Knudson said in response to questions from The Washington Post. The NTSB has urged medical helicopter programs to adopt each of those features, concluding their use could have prevented some previous accidents.
Thread Starter
OBX,
Correct me if I am wrong.....did your operation not have one fatal accident a few years back where the aircraft struck an unlit tower?
What "Lessons Learned" resulted from that?
I know your operation to be a very good one and has an excellent safety record as compared to all of the other operations in North Carolina in particular and the industry in general.
Correct me if I am wrong.....did your operation not have one fatal accident a few years back where the aircraft struck an unlit tower?
What "Lessons Learned" resulted from that?
I know your operation to be a very good one and has an excellent safety record as compared to all of the other operations in North Carolina in particular and the industry in general.
