PIC Time - Has anyone had a straight Answer?

[Gordy]

John:

The devil's in the detail

I was referring to FAA rules, and specifically the example I quoted. The "student" in the right seat, (in the case of the jetranger), does NOT hold ANY pilot certificate, and the "instructor" was NOT a rated CFI, therefore, holding ONLY a pilot license he was obligated to fly from the right seat. This is NOT a two pilot crew situation.

Can you imagine the insurance nightmare if something had gone wrong and he was in the "other" seat with no CFI license?

[gwelo shamwari]

Let me throw another can of worms in to the mix...

You are in a multi-crew situation. The company assigned PIC flies one leg and the SIC flies the other. When the pilots are flying they are making the command decisions. At the end of the day when the paperwork is done, the flight sheet shows both pilots have half PIC and SIC time.

How do you log this flight time?

[SASless]

Designated PIC shows all flight time as PIC, the SIC shows all half as SIC and half as PIC (FAR Rules)....now if the Autopilot is flying the aircraft and the SIC is only pushing buttons.....and not touching the sticks?

I guess George can log P1 US.

[gwelo shamwari]

Ok... but how would you log it in JAA land so that the CAA don't get their panties in a knot???

[SASless]

Crats Against Aviation knickers stay in a knot from what I recall.....as no one will say "Boo" to a ghost there unless they have a written document citing the exact case they are looking at....then they still are spring loaded to the "No" position.

Make no decisions....make no mistakes...incur no wrath from above!

[Gordy]

SASless:

Crats Against Aviation knickers stay in a knot from what I recall

Once again---you crack me up with your one liners...

Make no decisions....make no mistakes...incur no wrath from above!

Well, God-damn it--if only I had known that sooner---I would have a "clean" license....

SASless speaks the truth---but how boring is that???? What I have learnt is, that if you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

[SASless]

Gordy,

The pickle for working pilots (unlike our bureaucratic brethren) is we have to make decisions....constantly.....and everyone including heavenly bodies (not the female kind) weigh in on the outcomes. We live and die by our decisions.....and in those cases where we don't (make a decision) we can snuff it as well.

Then after it is all done but the finger pointing and hand wringing.....we or our heirs have to defend what we do/did. We don't get the luxury of hiding behind a pile of paperwork and bovine fecal matter like those who sit in judgement of us.

If the rules were black and white.....all those highly paid and perk laden drones would be out of a job and thus be faced with "earning" a living.

[Gordy]

SASless...

How true. You and I need to go for a beer one night.....

Reminds me of this...("Papa Phil" is my boss...):

A FEW GOOD HELICOPTER PILOTS..............

Gordy: "You want answers?"

Papa Phil: "I think I’m entitled."

Gordy: "You want answers?!"

Papa Phil: "I want the truth!"

Gordy: "You can't handle the truth!!!"

"We live in a world that requires revenue. That revenue is generated by flying helicopters, and must be flown by people with elite skills. Who's going to do it? You, Mr. President? You Mr. Finance? You, Ms. Human Resources? We have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You scoff at the Line Pilots and you curse our mediocre incentives. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know. And my very existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, drives REVENUE!

You don't want to know the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at the coffee pot and staff meetings, you want me in that helicopter. You NEED me in that helicopter!! We use words like RH, backing fire, ping pong balls, long line, buckets, load calcs, airworthiness, medium-rare, and on-the-rocks. We use these words as the backbone of all Professional Helicopter Fire Aviation. You use them as a punch line! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to people who rise and sleep under the very blanket of service I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a flight helmet. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"

Papa Phil: "Did you expense the lap dancers?"

Gordy: "I did the job I was hired to do."

Papa Phil: "Did you expense the lap dancers?!"

Gordy: "You're goddamn right I did!”

[IntheTin]

Haaaaaaa like it Gordy

[chinookgwa]

PIC?

Got what I presume is a simple question for those in the know. As a military pilot I've got P1 and Captaincy hours. When a civilian company (in this instance a US company) asks for PIC hours how are these defined? Is it all the P1 or just the captaincy?

[hands_on123]

PIC Time: Part 61.51 or Part 1. What's the difference?

[itk]

I've been reading the FARs in response to questions from company co-pilots regarding the logging of flight time.

Company co-pilots are not cleared to act as PIC, but they are permitted to manipulate the controls at the discretion of the PIC.

Have the FAA rules recently changed to bring them into line with the PICUS or P1/US concept?

Part 1.1 states:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

So under this definition, co-pilots can not be PIC. They do not have the final authority and responsibility, and they are never designated PIC.

However, does Part 61.51 allow co-pilots to log PIC time when they perform the duties of PIC under supervision? If so, it would appear to not be as simple as merely being the 'pilot flying' rather than 'pilot not flying' (a very different concept in my opinion)... it appears that there are 2 crucial provisos: they must be undergoing an approved PIC training scheme with each entry signed by the actual PIC in the logbook (as per JAA-land). Or is this section aimed at PPL/CPL/IR training rather than P1/US training schemes?

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—

( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

Have I interpreted this correctly? It would appear that the supervising pilot in command must also have a FI certificate...?

Or is the relevant section actually:

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

In which case, can a co-pilot act as PIC? Not according to the above definition. I also note that the definition of PIC mentions nothing about being the manipulator of the controls...

Does anybody know what the airlines operating under FAA do?

On 2 separate but related points:

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

Which operations under FAA require an ATP?

What are people's thoughts on the logging of flight time when moving between systems:
1. Flight time should be logged as per the rules of the licence they were using during that particular flight; or
2. Logbooks can be retrospectively adjusted to reflect the rules of any particular system as required.

[Rotorbee]

Your first question
The copilot can log PIC time, as long he is a required crew member.

Your second question.
Yes, the supervising pilot must be a CFI. It's all about training here.
A safety pilot on a simulated IFR flight, can not log PIC time, because he is not the sole manipulator of the controls. He is a required crew member, but not a CFI doing training. He/she is not supervising.

An ATP is needed for ... airline work.

[itk]

Thanks for the reply.

Your first question
The copilot can log PIC time, as long he is a required crew member.

But under what circumstances?
The "sole manipulator of controls" paragraphs does not seem to be referenced to multicrew environments by virtue of the fact that later paragraphs explicitly do reference multicrew environments.
Furthermore, the FAA's definition of PIC makes no reference to being the sole manipulator of controls as being part of the definition of PIC.
If this is the case, it would seem that the rules confuse "pilot flying / pilot not flying" with "PIC / SIC" which are very different concepts in multicrew.

Your second question.
Yes, the supervising pilot must be a CFI. It's all about training here.
A safety pilot on a simulated IFR flight, can not log PIC time, because he is not the sole manipulator of the controls. He is a required crew member, but not a CFI doing training. He/she is not supervising.

So if a co-pilot ever wishes to log PIC time, the accompanying captain must be an FAA CFI?

An ATP is needed for ... airline work.

Are there any regulations which point to this? Where does the definition of an airline come from? A small puddle-hopper? A widebody jet? Does scheduled public transport by rotorcraft count?

Thanks again for the reply.

[SASless]

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,

There is your answer.....the rest of that sentence had an "or" in front of it.

Anytime your co-pilot is rated in the aircraft (meaning type rating in the FAA usage of Type Rating) and is the handling pilot.....that is PIC time. (under the FAA Rules)

A good Captain will allow the Co-Pilot fly as much as possible to facilitate the building of PIC Time for the less experienced Pilot.....if you want him/her to move ahead professionally.

We do have a responsibility as Professionals to mentor our subordinates do we not?

[Rotorbee]

That whole question was never really completely explained by the FAA. But here a few more of my cents:

So if a co-pilot ever wishes to log PIC time, the accompanying captain must be an FAA CFI?

Nope. The captain is not acting as a CFI in normal circumstances. The co-pilot will only be able to get SIC time while in a airplane or operation that requires two pilots.
61.51

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

Acctually what I said in the last post is bs.

Look here for more information about logging PIC time in FAA land.

And acctually yes, pilot flying or non flying is not the same as PIC responsibilities. As you will see, even a safety pilot may log PIC time, if he is taking the responsibility.

And now read this and you will be completely confused:
61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.

I would say ... and I am absolutely not sure here and it does not bother me, because I don't fly this kind of ships ... if you are the copilot (providing operation and/or aircraft requires nada nada nada ...) you get SIC time, because you are not responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. That's the captain. If you are the captain you get PIC time ... period ... and now don't ask me about the relief pilot. We don't do plank questions here but generaly in a more-than-one-pilot-required environement the sole-manipulator-of-the-controls rule does not apply.

You may say, that this is not logic, because a CFI can always log PIC time and the student (as long as he/she is already a rated pilot) may also log PIC time. But that's two different things and another story.

[itk]

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
There is your answer.....the rest of that sentence had an "or" in front of it.

This is what doesn't make any sense to me (but then it doesn't really matter what makes sense to me. It is about what makes sense to the FAA).

My $0.02: (i) through (iv) must be exclusive clauses to make any sense, even in the absence of "or" / "and".

Which brings us right back around to what does being the handling pilot have to do with PIC/SIC designation in a multicrew environment? Who is logging it when the autopilot is engaged? What about when the pilots are regularly swapping "pilot flying" / "pilot not flying" roles during a single flight?

This mindset does seem rather entrenched with FAA pilots. For example, when two captains are scheduled together for a flight the FAA pilots will tend to consider the PIC/SIC designation as synonymous with PF/PNF allocation for the entire flight.

A good Captain will allow the Co-Pilot fly as much as possible to facilitate the building of PIC Time for the less experienced Pilot.....if you want him/her to move ahead professionally.

We do have a responsibility as Professionals to mentor our subordinates do we not?

For your second statement, absolutely. The other systems I've operated under do cater for this:

The Captain always logs PIC time for the entire flight.

The Co-Pilot logs either:

1. SIC time; or
2. PICUS (or P1/US depending upon terminology). This is not the same as straight PIC time, and it must be countersigned by the Captain. It is recognized by the regulatory body (sometimes with a weighting) towards the grant of licences etc.

For your first statement, my thoughts are that by the time a pilot reaches a multicrew role they often don't need work on "manipulating the controls" of yet another (probably easier to fly) helicopter... Decision making, multicrew CRM, operational considerations etc tend to make good topics for the mentoring IMHO. But if PIC time is only obtained when the copilot is concentrating on hand-flying the helicopter.....?

Rotorbee: reading this paragraph in your link would seem to suggest that two people can log PIC time for the same flight provided it is a multicrew operation:

However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is
sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.

[SASless]

ITK.....either log it like you have done in CAA/JAR/JAA/EASA land OR do per FAR's. Your pick....but when a Log Book Audit is done by the CAA et al....they will look to see it logged their way in their format and in their style Logbook.

If you log it using the FAA method....you might encounter a problem breaking out the right hours to suit the CAA et al.

My impression is you are trying to force the two methods into one...and that dear chum just doesn't fly in either system.

Simple rule for the FAA....if you are doing the driving....either with hands on the sticks or pushing autopilot buttons.....Log PIC.

You want interesting questions.....ask how many Pilots can log PIC simultaneously in the same aircraft!

Or...must you have a current Medical Certificate to log flight time?

Better yet....what if you have neither Medical Certificate or License of any kind....can you log flight time?

We can really get you confused with not a lot of effort!

[itk]

ITK.....either log it like you have done in CAA/JAR/JAA/EASA land OR do per FAR's. Your pick....but when a Log Book Audit is done by the CAA et al....they will look to see it logged their way in their format and in their style Logbook.

That is certainly the impression I've got from various authorities.

My impression is you are trying to force the two methods into one...and that dear chum just doesn't fly in either system.

My apologies if I have given that impression. I am merely trying to get a handle on the FAA system in order to give better answers to questions I'm receiving. What complicates our situation is we move pilots between countries, and use local licences which model themselves on various other authorities' rules. Therefore some company guidance is sorely needed.

Simple rule for the FAA....if you are doing the driving....either with hands on the sticks or pushing autopilot buttons.....Log PIC.

Well, as I've said this makes no sense to me, but what I think isn't what matters.

It raises some interesting questions about the practicalities... the handling pilot asking the non-handling pilot to set an altitude acquire, or change something in the FMS.... the list goes on and on.

You want interesting questions.....ask how many Pilots can log PIC simultaneously in the same aircraft!

Or...must you have a current Medical Certificate to log flight time?

Better yet....what if you have neither Medical Certificate or License of any kind....can you log flight time?

We can really get you confused with not a lot of effort!

Indeed!

Thanks to all for the comments and feedback.

[Rotorbee]

@itk

Rotorbee: reading this paragraph in your link would seem to suggest that two people can log PIC time for the same flight provided it is a multicrew operation:
Quote:
However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is
sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.

That's the thing with law. Only because the law says one thing, you may not automatically draw a conclusion that could be read between the lines.
The "may" in this sentence is probably only there, because the author wasn't absolutely sure, that there wasn't a possibility that this could indeed be the case.