Helicopter collides with bus at Kai Tak
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Thanks to Runway101 for posting the video. Now if you study it carefully, you will appreciate why this particular downwind landing into the confined area is fraught with risks. An accident waiting to happen.
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PPLs
Nubian!
Thanks for the PPL bailout! Appreciate it. We do have proper training and we do behave like professionals in the sky too. We don't long-line or do CAT A takeoffs, but none the less...
/p
Thanks for the PPL bailout! Appreciate it. We do have proper training and we do behave like professionals in the sky too. We don't long-line or do CAT A takeoffs, but none the less...
/p
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From Hong Kong Aviation Club
Received by email from the Deputy Chief Flying Instructor:
You may be aware that an accident involving an R-22 helicopter occurred in the car park adjacent to the Hong Kong Aviation Club at Kai Tak on 1 May 2009. B-LAT crash landed onto a coach at around 11 a.m. Fortunately the PIC, his passenger and the only occupant in the coach, the driver, suffered minor injuries and no hospitalization was required.
An investigation team was formed by the CAD instantly. We have unilaterally decided to temporary suspend all helicopter operations at Kai Tak with immediate effect until further notice. During this period, we will review our existing procedures and take necessary precautionary measures in order to prevent similar accidents in the future. In addition, the CAD is expected to publish a preliminary accident report shortly which may consist of certain recommendations to which we can make references.
Please understand that the Club will not issue further details of the accident whilst the CAD is carrying out its investigation.
An investigation team was formed by the CAD instantly. We have unilaterally decided to temporary suspend all helicopter operations at Kai Tak with immediate effect until further notice. During this period, we will review our existing procedures and take necessary precautionary measures in order to prevent similar accidents in the future. In addition, the CAD is expected to publish a preliminary accident report shortly which may consist of certain recommendations to which we can make references.
Please understand that the Club will not issue further details of the accident whilst the CAD is carrying out its investigation.
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downwind quickstops? now how does one do them again?
meanwhile the photos show that the bus might be the one with the learner driver, having impacted the rear of the port side skid and then got a hold of the helicopter by driving further along the skid and ending up with it jammed well into its own compartment?? sacre bleu! all on the pilots blind side.
The main problem is the aircraft rego B - LAT, wrong! it should be B - URL.
could have been worse, he might have been run over by a ten tonne truck, or the bus might have been reversing
meanwhile the photos show that the bus might be the one with the learner driver, having impacted the rear of the port side skid and then got a hold of the helicopter by driving further along the skid and ending up with it jammed well into its own compartment?? sacre bleu! all on the pilots blind side.
The main problem is the aircraft rego B - LAT, wrong! it should be B - URL.
could have been worse, he might have been run over by a ten tonne truck, or the bus might have been reversing
It appears that this thread has gone in the direction of "downwind quickstops".
With that in mind, what is the purpose of a downwind quickstop? Is not a quickstop merely a training exercise? I cannot think when I have actually had to do one in anger.
So, everyone talks about teaching them...why? What is their practical application?
And for further discussion----Lets assume you have a 25kt wind, why would it be necessary to do a downwind approach and landing? Would it not be safer to do a modified base approach to a steep, or even vertical approach and have at least some headwind component? Again, I cannot think of a single instance where I have had no other option than performing a downwind landing.
Let the excrement flinging begin....
With that in mind, what is the purpose of a downwind quickstop? Is not a quickstop merely a training exercise? I cannot think when I have actually had to do one in anger.
So, everyone talks about teaching them...why? What is their practical application?
And for further discussion----Lets assume you have a 25kt wind, why would it be necessary to do a downwind approach and landing? Would it not be safer to do a modified base approach to a steep, or even vertical approach and have at least some headwind component? Again, I cannot think of a single instance where I have had no other option than performing a downwind landing.
Let the excrement flinging begin....
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What is their [Quickstop] practical application?
I cannot think of a single instance where I have had no other option than performing a downwind landing.
Runway101
Yep---I was and still am being serious. If nothing else, we will call it a learning exercise.
In the situation with the wire---if you have time for a quickstop once you see the wire, then you have time to do a hard turn. The average quickstop from 60kts takes more distance than the distance required to execute a hard bank turn. Conversely, you could pull aft cyclic and climb above the wires.
Forgetting your "duff"---in reality, continue the take off and and fly a pattern back to your same spot.
In the case of the "flying orders'. Would a company really write rules that are not in the interest of safety? Is there REALLY no other way?
Not sure if this is a serious question, but a (previously hidden) wire directly in front of you during takeoff from an unscheduled loo break in a field would come to mind. Or when you suddenly remember during take off that you forgot to load the Duff under the left hand seat of your R22 for your camping trip.
In the situation with the wire---if you have time for a quickstop once you see the wire, then you have time to do a hard turn. The average quickstop from 60kts takes more distance than the distance required to execute a hard bank turn. Conversely, you could pull aft cyclic and climb above the wires.
Forgetting your "duff"---in reality, continue the take off and and fly a pattern back to your same spot.
In the case of the "flying orders'. Would a company really write rules that are not in the interest of safety? Is there REALLY no other way?
ReverseFlight:
It is hard to see on the video, but around 20 secs or so, it looks like they could angle 30 deg to the right, continue downwind a little and then make a hard left turn onto base and final.
Conversely, why not approach from the other direction and make a steep approach?
I find it hard to believe that there is ONLY one way in and one way out.
To answer the question, if there was absolutely NO other option, and I had to land there, I could do it, but why...... And there is ALWAYS the option of going around, unless there is a building in the way. Remember I AM the PIC, would the tower prefer me to crash, or go-around? Certainly here in the U.S. one can break any rule or regulation in the interest of safety--you just have to be able to justify it.
Gordy, would you do a downwind approach as per the video with no option of going around ? Such is the Hong Kong case.
Conversely, why not approach from the other direction and make a steep approach?
I find it hard to believe that there is ONLY one way in and one way out.
To answer the question, if there was absolutely NO other option, and I had to land there, I could do it, but why...... And there is ALWAYS the option of going around, unless there is a building in the way. Remember I AM the PIC, would the tower prefer me to crash, or go-around? Certainly here in the U.S. one can break any rule or regulation in the interest of safety--you just have to be able to justify it.
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The problem is tall buildings to the left (as you approach) and in front. As such the only alternative would be a left base to a very very short final which could leave you exposed to wind opposite to the tail rotor thrust and the attendant problems that go along with that.
The site itself is really not that confined, frankly those who have been posting as such have either never flown it or spend all their time doing "confined" approaches into 2,000 ft runways..
Clearly you don't choose to take the downwind option if there is a better way but in this case there isn't. Does it make it dangerous. No. Does it make it more challenging than the average approach. Yes. Can it be done by a compitent PPL. Yes. This time it didn't work, but people have accidents landing in headwinds, hovering and pretty much every other position they can dream up.
Helicopters have been coming in and out of here for years and there have been no acccidents to my knowledge. This is the unfortunate first.
If a PPL stacked it on a landing into wind then we would ban into wind landings.
Back to my first post, lots that we do in helicopters to get the utility out of them necessitates operating in some form of comromise. There is noting wrong with a downwind landing and there is certainly nothing wrong with the Kai Tak site..
The site itself is really not that confined, frankly those who have been posting as such have either never flown it or spend all their time doing "confined" approaches into 2,000 ft runways..
Clearly you don't choose to take the downwind option if there is a better way but in this case there isn't. Does it make it dangerous. No. Does it make it more challenging than the average approach. Yes. Can it be done by a compitent PPL. Yes. This time it didn't work, but people have accidents landing in headwinds, hovering and pretty much every other position they can dream up.
Helicopters have been coming in and out of here for years and there have been no acccidents to my knowledge. This is the unfortunate first.
If a PPL stacked it on a landing into wind then we would ban into wind landings.
Back to my first post, lots that we do in helicopters to get the utility out of them necessitates operating in some form of comromise. There is noting wrong with a downwind landing and there is certainly nothing wrong with the Kai Tak site..
Last edited by generalspecific; 5th May 2009 at 01:02.
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generalspecific is not reading the statement by the Deputy Chief Flying Instructor of the Hong Kong Aviation Club posted by Runway101 (#25 above).
Get real.
During this period, we will review our existing procedures and take necessary precautionary measures in order to prevent similar accidents in the future. In addition, the CAD is expected to publish a preliminary accident report shortly which may consist of certain recommendations to which we can make references.
Agree completely with generalspecific. There have been many thousands of approaches into that site over the years, the vast majority by Robinsons with PPL holders at the controls. The statement by the Deputy CFI is exactly what you would expect any responsible operator to come out with immediately following an accident, so what's your point ReverseFlight?