What would you do and why?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: chester uk
Age: 53
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this not a test of "are you going to second guess the POH?"
If the POH states "land immediately" then ditch
If the POH states "try to confirm and follow fire drill xyz " then do it.
Don't we all have to put our faith in the people who design the machines and write the POHs or do we think we know better?
Chester
If the POH states "land immediately" then ditch
If the POH states "try to confirm and follow fire drill xyz " then do it.
Don't we all have to put our faith in the people who design the machines and write the POHs or do we think we know better?
Chester
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Home by the Sea
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
put it on the deck with both engines
1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!
1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!
put it on the deck with both engines
1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!
1 You have a much better chance of putting out the fire, if there is one, on the rig with all their fire fighting gear.
2 If it was a fire you couldnt stop mid-air then getting the guys out of the machine on the rig is the best option for them rather than ditching in bad weather
3 Could be a false warning in which case landing would, in hindsight, also have been the best option
4 Shutting engines down is best performed on Terra Firma!
That's the one that gets my vote
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beside the seaside
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No POH of a twin engine helicopter is going to tell you to ditch with a single engine fire - unless you can't put it out. You carry out the immediate actions. Then when you are in a safe flight mode you do the follow up actions.
I had the privilege of being a sim instructor not so long ago. It was a privilege because I was able to see how a cross section of pilots with different backgrounds, experience levels and cultures coped with emergencies in periods of high workload. Most pilots cope quite well with an engine fire in the cruise.
Give them one on finals to a rig at night in bad weather and that is when the problems start. The ones who ended up with a red screen were the ones who tried put out the fire and continue with the landing. Mostly this happened because the flying pilot was concentrating on the landing and the non-flying pilot shut down the wrong engine. Or the flying pilot's attention was diverted between landing and confirming the correct fire drills and messed up the approach.
The ones who eventually diverted or landed on the rig safely OEI with the other secure were the ones who carried out a missed approach and did the correct drills.
I had the privilege of being a sim instructor not so long ago. It was a privilege because I was able to see how a cross section of pilots with different backgrounds, experience levels and cultures coped with emergencies in periods of high workload. Most pilots cope quite well with an engine fire in the cruise.
Give them one on finals to a rig at night in bad weather and that is when the problems start. The ones who ended up with a red screen were the ones who tried put out the fire and continue with the landing. Mostly this happened because the flying pilot was concentrating on the landing and the non-flying pilot shut down the wrong engine. Or the flying pilot's attention was diverted between landing and confirming the correct fire drills and messed up the approach.
The ones who eventually diverted or landed on the rig safely OEI with the other secure were the ones who carried out a missed approach and did the correct drills.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Climbing into cloud won't kill you. Flying around at 300 feet over water at night in poor vis with both pilots concentrating on fires drills just might.
When performing emergency drills at least one pilot should be flying the aircraft - basic CRM.
Having spent hundreds of hours flying low level over the sea I admit that emergency procedures are challenging under these condtions, but that is also the case when IMC.
It will take 40-60 sec to approach the rig, how much longer would you like to fly with an engine fire that does not extinguish?
Last edited by Broadcast Control; 4th Apr 2009 at 08:45.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: chester uk
Age: 53
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about basics of Aviate Navigate Communicate, surely whilst you are not in danger of CFIT you are safer than risking it all going wrong nearer the rig or closer to the deck.
Missed approach, carry out drills ,
1, if engine fire; OEI approach and land, or run on landing, if thats not possible ditch close to the rig as safely and as controlled as possible.
2, if no engine fire; set up approach again and land AEO.
Chester
Missed approach, carry out drills ,
1, if engine fire; OEI approach and land, or run on landing, if thats not possible ditch close to the rig as safely and as controlled as possible.
2, if no engine fire; set up approach again and land AEO.
Chester
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beside the seaside
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Broadcast,
Out west changed the goal posts in post #12. That was when I decided to put my two pennyworth in.
The scenario was for a simuator session NOT the real thing. If I were the TRE in the sim and you did not carry out the correct drills then I would tell you about it in the debrief. If the scenario were for real then there is no freeze button or TRE to debrief you.
All that I would say is that the sim is a great tool and having seen hundreds of crashes due to pilots not following the correct procedures and hundreds of successful landings due to pilots following the correct procedures - I know what I would be doing. What you do for real is your problem.
Out west changed the goal posts in post #12. That was when I decided to put my two pennyworth in.
The scenario was for a simuator session NOT the real thing. If I were the TRE in the sim and you did not carry out the correct drills then I would tell you about it in the debrief. If the scenario were for real then there is no freeze button or TRE to debrief you.
All that I would say is that the sim is a great tool and having seen hundreds of crashes due to pilots not following the correct procedures and hundreds of successful landings due to pilots following the correct procedures - I know what I would be doing. What you do for real is your problem.
Squeaks,
All offshore helicopters operating in PC2 will have power to climb but will only have power for OEI landing if the wind is strong enough or the payload is light.
I would like to know what 'all the aircraft I have flown' are.
You are clearly not an offshore pilot.
Jim
All offshore helicopters operating in PC2 will have power to climb but will only have power for OEI landing if the wind is strong enough or the payload is light.
I would like to know what 'all the aircraft I have flown' are.
You are clearly not an offshore pilot.
Jim
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: not where I want to be
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even though is probably the most trained emergency in the simulator,is there anybody out there that has actually had a real engine fire on the modern(Puma,76,92 etc) helicopters.
Most of us have probably had false ones,but I just wonder if there have been real ones.
Other wise I would most probably go with Jim Beam's solution
rotorknight
Most of us have probably had false ones,but I just wonder if there have been real ones.
Other wise I would most probably go with Jim Beam's solution
rotorknight
I'm assuming that the original question was aimed at testing procedures in the sim, but this is the perspective of one of your pax (albeit a former twin pilot).
For real, there'd be a bloke on the helideck with radio comms who'd let you know if that red caption reflected reality. He's got a team of blokes in fire-retardant suits, some of whom are manning foam cannon, who could do a good job of extinguishing the fire if you put the cab on the helideck. Our ladders aren't that long.
For real, there'd be a bloke on the helideck with radio comms who'd let you know if that red caption reflected reality. He's got a team of blokes in fire-retardant suits, some of whom are manning foam cannon, who could do a good job of extinguishing the fire if you put the cab on the helideck. Our ladders aren't that long.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: LOS
Age: 67
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squeaks, calm down, I never meant this to go to where you would lose the will to live or to play mind games. 
I apologize for what some are calling shifting goal posts, I simply neglected to provide too much info so as to try and get a good cross section of opinions, which I did, so thanks to those who posted.
I will now "come clean". The sim in question is the S61, so anyone who really does have time in the old girl will tell you an OEI landing on a deck, unless extremely light, is not an option. The sim is night only.
The situation we were dealing with is an ARA and giving an ENG FIRE where the weather was set so that the crew may become visual. The problem was exactly the same as the discussion going on here now......many opinions/options and the fact that we could not say what the "right" choice was has resulted in this:
No ENG FIRE drills if the rig weather is set to a level that will allow it to become visual.
I apologize for what some are calling shifting goal posts, I simply neglected to provide too much info so as to try and get a good cross section of opinions, which I did, so thanks to those who posted.
I will now "come clean". The sim in question is the S61, so anyone who really does have time in the old girl will tell you an OEI landing on a deck, unless extremely light, is not an option. The sim is night only.
The situation we were dealing with is an ARA and giving an ENG FIRE where the weather was set so that the crew may become visual. The problem was exactly the same as the discussion going on here now......many opinions/options and the fact that we could not say what the "right" choice was has resulted in this:
No ENG FIRE drills if the rig weather is set to a level that will allow it to become visual.
well done on the question 'out west' you've certainly got a mixed responses. As a single engine day VFR only pilot my first response would wtf am i doing here, but then i'd choose the deck landing. if its that bad that the chopper gets pushed over the side then you would have ditched anyways and you've made the right choice. it might be hard to see the instruments with a cabin full of smoke..
so do i get the job
so do i get the job
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: LOS
Age: 67
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squeaks, although you did not need to remove your posts on my account, it does show you are a gentlemen. Something a great many posters on PPRuNe could take a lesson from
Thanks again to all who provided their thoughts. The ability to be able to access the wealth of knowledge and experience of such a diverse cross section of pilots is fantastic.
Best regards
(Sorry ascj, hiring crew is above my pay grade
)
Thanks again to all who provided their thoughts. The ability to be able to access the wealth of knowledge and experience of such a diverse cross section of pilots is fantastic.
Best regards
(Sorry ascj, hiring crew is above my pay grade
)
