SAR - Recovering large numbers of survivors.
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SAR - Recovering large numbers of survivors.
One SAR unit and 15 survivors (Offshore scenario) or Multiple SAR units and 700 Ferry pax present an unacceptable time-scale for rescue in adverse weather if they are the only responders - Discuss!!
Well, one idea could be to fit a 2-door, 2 winch solution to our SAR units - that would have the potential to double the recovery rate although it would be necessary to leave a winchman down below to supervise the loading of 2 survivors on the the end of the winch for each load.
Is that a go-er .............. or a non-starter?
G.
Well, one idea could be to fit a 2-door, 2 winch solution to our SAR units - that would have the potential to double the recovery rate although it would be necessary to leave a winchman down below to supervise the loading of 2 survivors on the the end of the winch for each load.
Is that a go-er .............. or a non-starter?
G.
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Shurely you're not sherioush? Two wires to tangle, two directions to move the aircraft at the same time, two simultaneous commentaries from two winch operators, and that's just a start. No, it's not a 'go-er'.
There are many issues with that suggestion Geoffers, not only would you need two winches but two winch operators (which one is giving the con to the pilot?) The second door would use up valuable cabin seating space so you would need a bigger aircraft as well.
The main problem is that a winching scenario where you could winch from both sides is unlikely as you would be hovering right over the vessel. If it is a large ferry and it is not on its side it is probably quicker to try and land as many have a large flat area on top. With a liferaft the downwash would present a major problem if you were trying to hover over it and you would need 2 winchmen to prepare the casualties for the 2 winchops as they would be on opposite sides of the liferaft.
One way of speeding up the process is to have 4 strops so the winchman on the ground/deck can already be preparing the next 2 evacuees as the winchop is bringing 2 into the cabin - this was used successfully at Boscastle instead of the single strop lifts the RN did.
The main problem is that a winching scenario where you could winch from both sides is unlikely as you would be hovering right over the vessel. If it is a large ferry and it is not on its side it is probably quicker to try and land as many have a large flat area on top. With a liferaft the downwash would present a major problem if you were trying to hover over it and you would need 2 winchmen to prepare the casualties for the 2 winchops as they would be on opposite sides of the liferaft.
One way of speeding up the process is to have 4 strops so the winchman on the ground/deck can already be preparing the next 2 evacuees as the winchop is bringing 2 into the cabin - this was used successfully at Boscastle instead of the single strop lifts the RN did.
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Why discuss potential scenario, when history can provide many that already happened ? 
For example, from my backyard:
14th January 1993 - 4 o clock in the morning, 6-meter waves, 100kts wind, 2°C water, "MF Hewelius" ferry ship with 64 people on board capsizes. Ship on German waters, helicopter SAR units respond - Dutch, German and Polish, plus German rescue vessel "Arcona". All 3 Polish long range rescue helos ready for take off - can get there faster, but didn't get the green light, soon two becoming damaged on shutdown in high wind. One fly after being apparent that German Seakings can't get there on time. On scene Dutch and German Sea Kings don't have rescue swimmers, can rescue only few people that could be strapped on by other survivors in rafts ('Marine Electric' rings a bell ?). One raft with 3 survivors in immersion suits is capsized by rescue sling from one of the Seakings - all die of suffocation. Arcona vessel on scene can't do much good either. Polish helicopter with rescue swimmer gets on scene to late to pick up anyone alive, is collecting bodies, the process is continued for another two days.
Out off 64, almost all got out of the ship, 9 persons are rescued - those who survived 4 hours in water, 10 others were never found.
From my searches on this types of accidents, the number of people on board is not a major factor, you can't and shouldn't consider preparing a helicopter for picking up 24+ people, it's not efficient. What's the most important, is to have a good decision making system, good coverage with as many types of rescue systems as possible, and their speed is a major factor.
Even if you take a Chinook with 3 winches, you won't be as efficient as having 3 smaller aircrafts, and in high sees you won't be able to use it anyway. And if something that big that have 30+ people on board goes down, it have to be hell of a storm, and it's mostly in remote areas, where you can't pick up that many people anyway because your time on station is limited by your fuel load which goes very fast in those conditions. That's why I don't find AW101 as an efficient SAR machine here - I don't think that in "SHTF" situation it will have enough fuel to fill up its cabin anyway. Cheaper, smaller Pumas, S-92s, NH-90s etc will do the job better.
BTW it is not a job for helicopters to evacuate a 700ppl cruiser - that's why they have so big and elaborate safety systems, so the people can survive on water until other big ship arrives.
Of course there are accidents like the one of "MS Estonia", also on Baltic sea, 28th September 1994, where out of 989 - only 134 survived, simply because there was no time to evacuate the ship, and no rescue aircraft could helped there.
For example, from my backyard:
14th January 1993 - 4 o clock in the morning, 6-meter waves, 100kts wind, 2°C water, "MF Hewelius" ferry ship with 64 people on board capsizes. Ship on German waters, helicopter SAR units respond - Dutch, German and Polish, plus German rescue vessel "Arcona". All 3 Polish long range rescue helos ready for take off - can get there faster, but didn't get the green light, soon two becoming damaged on shutdown in high wind. One fly after being apparent that German Seakings can't get there on time. On scene Dutch and German Sea Kings don't have rescue swimmers, can rescue only few people that could be strapped on by other survivors in rafts ('Marine Electric' rings a bell ?). One raft with 3 survivors in immersion suits is capsized by rescue sling from one of the Seakings - all die of suffocation. Arcona vessel on scene can't do much good either. Polish helicopter with rescue swimmer gets on scene to late to pick up anyone alive, is collecting bodies, the process is continued for another two days.
Out off 64, almost all got out of the ship, 9 persons are rescued - those who survived 4 hours in water, 10 others were never found.
From my searches on this types of accidents, the number of people on board is not a major factor, you can't and shouldn't consider preparing a helicopter for picking up 24+ people, it's not efficient. What's the most important, is to have a good decision making system, good coverage with as many types of rescue systems as possible, and their speed is a major factor.
Even if you take a Chinook with 3 winches, you won't be as efficient as having 3 smaller aircrafts, and in high sees you won't be able to use it anyway. And if something that big that have 30+ people on board goes down, it have to be hell of a storm, and it's mostly in remote areas, where you can't pick up that many people anyway because your time on station is limited by your fuel load which goes very fast in those conditions. That's why I don't find AW101 as an efficient SAR machine here - I don't think that in "SHTF" situation it will have enough fuel to fill up its cabin anyway. Cheaper, smaller Pumas, S-92s, NH-90s etc will do the job better.
BTW it is not a job for helicopters to evacuate a 700ppl cruiser - that's why they have so big and elaborate safety systems, so the people can survive on water until other big ship arrives.
Of course there are accidents like the one of "MS Estonia", also on Baltic sea, 28th September 1994, where out of 989 - only 134 survived, simply because there was no time to evacuate the ship, and no rescue aircraft could helped there.
Avoid imitations
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If it is a large ferry and it is not on its side it is probably quicker to try and land as many have a large flat area on top.
(i.e. Sorry if I just trod on your head Madam...)
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Modern thinking is that large ferry ships are made to "be their own lifeboats", with state of the art fire suppression and damage control systems that compartmentalise the ship and keep it afloat.
I agree that multiple winching from the same helicopter is probably not safe except in the most stable and low hover regimes.
The SAR-H programme has also had a brief look at human external cargo systems, which are basically a large sling load cage, certified by the FAA, to carry people. These systems can either be flown to the incident (quite low VMax) or carried on board large vessels. Providing you are near to land or have a suitable vessel to cross-deck to then rescue rates well in excess of normal winching can be achieved.
I agree that multiple winching from the same helicopter is probably not safe except in the most stable and low hover regimes.
The SAR-H programme has also had a brief look at human external cargo systems, which are basically a large sling load cage, certified by the FAA, to carry people. These systems can either be flown to the incident (quite low VMax) or carried on board large vessels. Providing you are near to land or have a suitable vessel to cross-deck to then rescue rates well in excess of normal winching can be achieved.
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Lt Fubar et al
Seems that whichever way you cut it having some way of speeding up the winch-up rate would be handy. I don't quite follow the reasoning behind the assertion that small is beautiful in this context but it would be true to say that (back seat) crew exhaustion could be a factor if you have to lift too many and maybe winch overheating could affect things too.
The elephant in the room is the notion that all is well with the status quo. I have had an uneasy feeling for the last 14 years since first realising that we needed a lot of fuel to feed the hover time needed to pick up a full load of survivors and if you had to do this at extreme range in light winds it made for nail biting stuff. Work out the winch-up rates for assisted lifts and you are looking at a serious issue.
Simply watching the ships go by in the busiest sea lane in the world and trusting to 'modern design' doesn't really fill me confidence.
G
The elephant in the room is the notion that all is well with the status quo. I have had an uneasy feeling for the last 14 years since first realising that we needed a lot of fuel to feed the hover time needed to pick up a full load of survivors and if you had to do this at extreme range in light winds it made for nail biting stuff. Work out the winch-up rates for assisted lifts and you are looking at a serious issue.
Simply watching the ships go by in the busiest sea lane in the world and trusting to 'modern design' doesn't really fill me confidence.
G
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I'm not telling that small is beautiful. In maritime SAR it isn't, mainly because small helicopters don't take much fuel, which is crucial. I see the 10-11 ton class a sweet spot for those kinds of operations... not really accidental ones, but more of a purpose built machines - for example, take the S-92, throw on it enlarged sponsons with bigger fuel tanks (MH-53E style) trading some speed and power for more time on station, and you may have a nice SAR platform.
How long does it take to winch up a person ? 30 seconds, depends on hover hight and load - that's a minute a cycle. Not a lot time to save from by going faster. In scenario where you have to pick people off the water, there is actually no time to safe on that, as the rescue swimmer (if you have one !) needs some time to go for a casualty, bring it back, prep for lift, and go for another one. And I don't think putting two of them in the water will be a good move either And two winches simply don't work together in weather.
What I think is you just need a helicopter that have the range, and speed to get there fast, and enough fuel till bingo to lift as many people it can hold. In the mean time another should be in the way to continue, where the first left off And that still solves only a case of less than 40 casualty scenarios. Above that you can't go without a boat, it's just impossible.
If anyone would like to lift 700ppl of a ship using only helicopters, even 50nm off the shore, even using 3 Chinooks, each fitted with two winches, picking off the deck, in perfect weather, you still need about 9 hours to complete the evacuation. on the other hand, it would take probably less than two hours with another ship nearby - though passengers would be out of harms way in mater of minutes. Put those people in the water and rafts, throw some weather, and the difference becomes even bigger.
If anything - SAR operators should get big and FAST vessels to cope with that kind of emergency, not messing with helicopters making them heavier and more costly to run by giving them capabilities that will never make the difference anyway.
So my take on this: Want to improve scenario with 15 people ? - Give more fuel for more time on station. Want to improve 700ppl scenario - look for other ships, helicopters wont do much there by themselves.
BTW those big baskets - should work great in good weather when attached on scene and going short distances between casualties and rescue vessel. Throw some weather to the equation, and they become useless - just a giant sea anchor with people banging on the walls inside with every wave... not where I would like to be
How long does it take to winch up a person ? 30 seconds, depends on hover hight and load - that's a minute a cycle. Not a lot time to save from by going faster. In scenario where you have to pick people off the water, there is actually no time to safe on that, as the rescue swimmer (if you have one !) needs some time to go for a casualty, bring it back, prep for lift, and go for another one. And I don't think putting two of them in the water will be a good move either
And two winches simply don't work together in weather.What I think is you just need a helicopter that have the range, and speed to get there fast, and enough fuel till bingo to lift as many people it can hold. In the mean time another should be in the way to continue, where the first left off
And that still solves only a case of less than 40 casualty scenarios. Above that you can't go without a boat, it's just impossible. If anyone would like to lift 700ppl of a ship using only helicopters, even 50nm off the shore, even using 3 Chinooks, each fitted with two winches, picking off the deck, in perfect weather, you still need about 9 hours to complete the evacuation. on the other hand, it would take probably less than two hours with another ship nearby - though passengers would be out of harms way in mater of minutes. Put those people in the water and rafts, throw some weather, and the difference becomes even bigger.
If anything - SAR operators should get big and FAST vessels to cope with that kind of emergency, not messing with helicopters making them heavier and more costly to run by giving them capabilities that will never make the difference anyway.
So my take on this: Want to improve scenario with 15 people ? - Give more fuel for more time on station. Want to improve 700ppl scenario - look for other ships, helicopters wont do much there by themselves.
BTW those big baskets - should work great in good weather when attached on scene and going short distances between casualties and rescue vessel. Throw some weather to the equation, and they become useless - just a giant sea anchor with people banging on the walls inside with every wave... not where I would like to be
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Lt. Fubar
I agree with most of what you have to say, but the basket is not such a liability as you suggest.
It would be more like one minute per cycle per person on a winch. A Super Puma type with say, a twenty survivor lift could take 20 - 30 minutes to fill - single lift - somewhere near half that with adouble lift. Even so, a basket rescue - provided that the basket was positioned properly could lift 16 people in a few minutes.
Inshore or oilfields, short-range jobs a basket rescue is the answer.
I agree with most of what you have to say, but the basket is not such a liability as you suggest.
It would be more like one minute per cycle per person on a winch. A Super Puma type with say, a twenty survivor lift could take 20 - 30 minutes to fill - single lift - somewhere near half that with adouble lift. Even so, a basket rescue - provided that the basket was positioned properly could lift 16 people in a few minutes.
Inshore or oilfields, short-range jobs a basket rescue is the answer.
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I agree, though the topic started with adverse weather scenario, and this is the place where this basket won't work, and unfortunately most maritime rescue situations are in adverse weather.
I'm all for having those devices stored on board of rescue vessels, to be used when possible, but I believe, adverse weather is not that time, and needs different approach. Unfortunately multiple hoists on one aircraft also won't work in those situations.
I believe that having many aircrafts with enough fuel to stay till full is the right approach to low-medium number of casualties, and having rescue vessels working in cooperation with helicopters (that can take seriously injured on shore fast) is the way to go with the big numbers.
Again: I'm not bashing that idea, I'm always talking about adverse weather operations (a.k.a. high sees, storms and hurricanes).
I'm all for having those devices stored on board of rescue vessels, to be used when possible, but I believe, adverse weather is not that time, and needs different approach. Unfortunately multiple hoists on one aircraft also won't work in those situations.
I believe that having many aircrafts with enough fuel to stay till full is the right approach to low-medium number of casualties, and having rescue vessels working in cooperation with helicopters (that can take seriously injured on shore fast) is the way to go with the big numbers.
Again: I'm not bashing that idea, I'm always talking about adverse weather operations (a.k.a. high sees, storms and hurricanes).
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Geoffer,
The active SAR guys will confirm or alter this as needed.
Most winches these days are electric/hydarulic powered. An electric motor drives a pump that powers the winch giving you almost unlimited cycles available before you run out of fuel.
Winching speed is controllable up to 250'/minute until the last few feet which is slowed to allow the operator to control it better. It may not seem very fast, but until you have been the dope on the rope and experienced it for yourself you haven't lived.
A 61 looks small on the end of a 250' cable, really small.
The active SAR guys will confirm or alter this as needed.
Most winches these days are electric/hydarulic powered. An electric motor drives a pump that powers the winch giving you almost unlimited cycles available before you run out of fuel.
Winching speed is controllable up to 250'/minute until the last few feet which is slowed to allow the operator to control it better. It may not seem very fast, but until you have been the dope on the rope and experienced it for yourself you haven't lived.
A 61 looks small on the end of a 250' cable, really small.
Chief Bottle Washer
US,
I know that Geoffer has been the tea bag on a Sea King winch more than once: and a Whirlwind, and a Wessex Back when the SK was shiny, new and sequentially numbered 
I know that Geoffer has been the tea bag on a Sea King winch more than once: and a Whirlwind, and a Wessex
Back when the SK was shiny, new and sequentially numbered
The Sea has been taking victims since Man first set foot into it and vessels upon it. It will continue to do so no matter what Man tries to do to mitigate those losses.
The problem with seeking a total coverage for every contingency is that it simply cannot be done.
The North Sea is much better covered now than it has ever been but we shall have those events that claim lives.
Prevention is the best method to minimize the losses.
SAR kicks in when the systems in place have failures.
The problem with seeking a total coverage for every contingency is that it simply cannot be done.
The North Sea is much better covered now than it has ever been but we shall have those events that claim lives.
Prevention is the best method to minimize the losses.
SAR kicks in when the systems in place have failures.
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SAS
Talking about the sea taking victims.
Last year was the first in history that the it didn't catch any of our Icelandic fishermen.
I'd like to take my hat off for the crew of the Bond Puma ditching in the middle of the NS drink. The world looks really big seen from that place.
Talking about the sea taking victims.
Last year was the first in history that the it didn't catch any of our Icelandic fishermen.
I'd like to take my hat off for the crew of the Bond Puma ditching in the middle of the NS drink. The world looks really big seen from that place.
TRC - I know the USCG love the basket winching technique but the fundamental problem is that you have no control over how the survivors get in (they have to be pretty fit and well to enter the basket by themselves, especially from the water or a raft) and, in the case of the mass evacuation from a vessel, how many get in - the same stampede situation ShyTorque was alluding to. If too many get in - then what are you going to do?
I am very much with Lt Fubar on this one - I think the baskets are a liability in anything but good weather and you are better off sending more assets so that simultaneous winching can take place at several locations on the vessel (bow, amidships and stern for example). Then you need another boat to tansfer them to.
I am very much with Lt Fubar on this one - I think the baskets are a liability in anything but good weather and you are better off sending more assets so that simultaneous winching can take place at several locations on the vessel (bow, amidships and stern for example). Then you need another boat to tansfer them to.
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Crab,
That's not what I'm talking about - the 2 man version. I'm not keen on that either.
I'm referring to the mass rescue - 16 person lift - basket. The one in SASless's post.
I know the USCG love the basket winching technique
I'm referring to the mass rescue - 16 person lift - basket. The one in SASless's post.
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OK - So where are we?
We have contemplated a number of scenarios and concluded that any MRCC should have a range of options available and that the key issue is having a plan B that can cater for the 700 pax situation.
In the context of the English Channel are the range of options available to the Duty CG top secret? If not can we know what they are. Do they have access to enough helicopters, boats, baskets and do their sums add up?
Adverse weather can include low wind scenarios - fog for example - I know it wont help aviation assets but neither will it assist other vessels and the liklihood is that you will end up with a scattering of liferafts and lifeboats if they managed to get them away - which they may not. The aftermath of that could be a dog's breakfast.
I am happy to recognise the value of each asset in a particular context but but when push comes to shove the boat with the problem hasn't read the MRCC Handbook so is likely to require adaptability, flexibility, good comms and as many options as possible............ are they currently available I wonder?
G:
ok:
PS. Would you really plan on picking up 15 people in 15 minutes? Not me Chief. I think I would allow 30 mins and be happy if I didn't over-run.
PPS. Did you realise that a bunch of S76s was sold to HKAAF with a hoist on each side!! How did that work I wonder?
In the context of the English Channel are the range of options available to the Duty CG top secret? If not can we know what they are. Do they have access to enough helicopters, boats, baskets and do their sums add up?
Adverse weather can include low wind scenarios - fog for example - I know it wont help aviation assets but neither will it assist other vessels and the liklihood is that you will end up with a scattering of liferafts and lifeboats if they managed to get them away - which they may not. The aftermath of that could be a dog's breakfast.
I am happy to recognise the value of each asset in a particular context but but when push comes to shove the boat with the problem hasn't read the MRCC Handbook so is likely to require adaptability, flexibility, good comms and as many options as possible............ are they currently available I wonder?
G:
ok:
PS. Would you really plan on picking up 15 people in 15 minutes? Not me Chief. I think I would allow 30 mins and be happy if I didn't over-run.
PPS. Did you realise that a bunch of S76s was sold to HKAAF with a hoist on each side!! How did that work I wonder?
Crab,
Please to remember the USCG operates with Rescue Swimmers as a standard part of the crew.
Answer to your question....they send the swimmer down to control loading the basket. He remains aboard until the last.
Please to remember the USCG operates with Rescue Swimmers as a standard part of the crew.
Answer to your question....they send the swimmer down to control loading the basket. He remains aboard until the last.