EC155 Salary & quals south UK
To buy the 155 and not equip it with the IR pilot is akin to buying the Bentley and hiring a marginally-trained chauffeur or curry-delivery driver to drive it around.
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"he wants a simillar salary but states that as we probably wouldnt want to fly in poor weather the IR is not required"
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Martin,
Forget the 155, get a second hand S76C+, there are at least two well eqipped corporate models for sale and a couple of fully qualified pilots who would be happy to help at £69,995.
Forget the 155, get a second hand S76C+, there are at least two well eqipped corporate models for sale and a couple of fully qualified pilots who would be happy to help at £69,995.
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Martin,
Why don't you place an ad for a suitably qualified pilot for your proposed operation in 'Flight' or other similar publication?
You'll get an idea of the level of interest in the position and you'll be able to assess the qualifications and experience of prospective candidates.
And. as sometimes happens, the position might just go the the right guy!
PS - sack the consultants, they should be advising you on this.
Why don't you place an ad for a suitably qualified pilot for your proposed operation in 'Flight' or other similar publication?
You'll get an idea of the level of interest in the position and you'll be able to assess the qualifications and experience of prospective candidates.
And. as sometimes happens, the position might just go the the right guy!
PS - sack the consultants, they should be advising you on this.
To be fair, Eddy, if the principal owns the company, then it's up to him what he does with his spends.
However, he relies on people like Martin to get the right answer. Martin, I must echo what other people have said - get the IFR guy. I left the Army in June and spent my last 2 months in the army (and over £45k) getting an IR. As a result of that IR I now have my dream job in a terrific location flying SAR helos, getting paid as a copilot in excess of what people are suggesting for a captain on your machine. So money well spent.
Few military pilots get an IR when in the forces as it isn't needed for many of the tasks they do. A pilot who tells you an IR isn't needed for corporate work (which I have also done a little of) when that pilot doesn't have an IR is, by definition, unqualified to advise you of that point!
If your principal simply wants to get safely from A to B, and the cloudbase is at 500 ft above ground level (not unusual and not particularly bad weather either) your pilot will need an IR. Don't confuse poor vis and low cloudbase with turbulence that will make principal's family unwell. How many times have you flown on an airliner and you're looking out the window and you're in cloud? It isn't turbulent, everything is fine, and there are no problems. Those pilots couldn't do that without an IR!
I know that helicopters don't go as high, but cloud comes down pretty low in this country. You're buying a helicopter for 2 reasons: Flexibility and to save time; you will have neither without an IR qualified pilot! This is not qualification snobbery, this is the truth and I have seen the light brother!
Military pilots mostly have a non-procedural IR which allows them to fly in cloud but many airfields then can't take them because of the type of approach they use, however, this qualification is not available to them outside the military and they won't be able to fly in cloud at all.
And finally, if your boss wants to fly to a different country from time to time, then the IR allows him to do that with much greater flexibility. Whoever the military pilot is, then I'm sorry mate if this comes as unwelcome news, but those are the facts of life and the 2 accidents referred to above should remind you of that.
All the best!
However, he relies on people like Martin to get the right answer. Martin, I must echo what other people have said - get the IFR guy. I left the Army in June and spent my last 2 months in the army (and over £45k) getting an IR. As a result of that IR I now have my dream job in a terrific location flying SAR helos, getting paid as a copilot in excess of what people are suggesting for a captain on your machine. So money well spent.
Few military pilots get an IR when in the forces as it isn't needed for many of the tasks they do. A pilot who tells you an IR isn't needed for corporate work (which I have also done a little of) when that pilot doesn't have an IR is, by definition, unqualified to advise you of that point!
If your principal simply wants to get safely from A to B, and the cloudbase is at 500 ft above ground level (not unusual and not particularly bad weather either) your pilot will need an IR. Don't confuse poor vis and low cloudbase with turbulence that will make principal's family unwell. How many times have you flown on an airliner and you're looking out the window and you're in cloud? It isn't turbulent, everything is fine, and there are no problems. Those pilots couldn't do that without an IR!
I know that helicopters don't go as high, but cloud comes down pretty low in this country. You're buying a helicopter for 2 reasons: Flexibility and to save time; you will have neither without an IR qualified pilot! This is not qualification snobbery, this is the truth and I have seen the light brother!
Military pilots mostly have a non-procedural IR which allows them to fly in cloud but many airfields then can't take them because of the type of approach they use, however, this qualification is not available to them outside the military and they won't be able to fly in cloud at all.
And finally, if your boss wants to fly to a different country from time to time, then the IR allows him to do that with much greater flexibility. Whoever the military pilot is, then I'm sorry mate if this comes as unwelcome news, but those are the facts of life and the 2 accidents referred to above should remind you of that.
All the best!
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IMHO a bad idea. If you want to do this properly with 2 crew, then the co-pilot should be equally qualified (i.e instrument -rated) and experienced in 2 crew IFR operations. The only compromise is that he/she could be experienced less in terms of hours than the Captain.
Or is it safe enough to have the 250 hour guy (or the inexperienced recent VFR guy) assist in carrying 12 roughnecks, but not safe enough for the CEO - and all that with much less workload in a fancy SPIFR EC155 rather than a dual pilot S-76A or AS332L1?
Back on topic: the EC155 probably cost £1 or £2 mio more than a comparable alternative (I stand corrected) - just think about it: for £1 million you spend in excess because it may look better, you could hire 3 pilots (let's say 2 captains, 1 FO) for 5 years and still pay 'em a somewhat decent salary!?
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A low hour VFR pilot in the co-pilot's seat of a SPIFR machine is a sensible compromise. It takes a lot of pressure off the captain by helping out on the non-critical nif naf associated with helicopter operations. Passenger handling, Jepp updates, flight planning and ops etc etc... In return the co-pilot has a great chance to build hours in a complex machine under the supervision of an experienced Captain. It should happen more!
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Excellent comment Bilbo; I am an expert at folding charts and have impeccable diction on the radio. And I smell nicer than most co-pilots 
So is there really a possibility of a 250 hour CPL getting a co-pilot job in corporate aviation?
Cheers
Whirls
So is there really a possibility of a 250 hour CPL getting a co-pilot job in corporate aviation?
Cheers
Whirls
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101BOY
No - I think a realistic salary given that most on-shore captains dont get the same salary that their off-shore equivalent gets. With the the on-shore corporate market currently getting squeezed, (corporate jets & helicopters are not flavour of the month with shareholders), and the charter market shrinking as well, there are some well qualified & experienced pilots out there that would happily settle for that amount. Don't get me wrong - pilots should get as much as they can for their services - but not price themselves out of a job.
PHIL77
All North Sea pilots are required to be instrument rated - there are no VFR guys carrying 12 roughnecks in Europe. What I was suggesting was that a relatively inexperienced co-pilot (1200-1500 hrs/2-3 years North Sea) in the left seat would be advantageous over a purely VFR co-pilot. Understanding 2-crew IFR proceedures when the weather is cr*p and the s**t is hitting the fan, must be helpful to the captain.
Bertie Thruster
The police & AA pilots I know are all top blokes, who I have the utmost respect for, and are more than capable of holding IR's. PAS and direct employ police units dont want IR'd pilots as they would have to pay more or risk them going to better paid employment. However all of BAS, London HEMS (2-crew) and at least 1 of the NEAA (PDG) pilots are IR'd, as they believe it adds to the safety of the operation.
I'd say you've undercooked the Captain pay by 10k there, given the burden of responsibility will be with him and not through an operator.
PHIL77
I know how you get instrument rated, but following your argument, how do you suggest a low timer should get experienced in multi-crew IFR operations?
Or is it safe enough to have the 250 hour guy (or the inexperienced recent VFR guy) assist in carrying 12 roughnecks, but not safe enough for the CEO - and all that with much less workload in a fancy SPIFR EC155 rather than a dual pilot S-76A or AS332L1?
Or is it safe enough to have the 250 hour guy (or the inexperienced recent VFR guy) assist in carrying 12 roughnecks, but not safe enough for the CEO - and all that with much less workload in a fancy SPIFR EC155 rather than a dual pilot S-76A or AS332L1?
Bertie Thruster
To buy the 155 and not equip it with the IR pilot is akin to buying the Bentley and hiring a marginally-trained chauffeur or curry-delivery driver to drive it around.
I totally agree with the intent of this quote but it does rather suggest that the UK's force of non IR'ed EC 135/MD902 police and air ambulance pilots are marginally trained !
I totally agree with the intent of this quote but it does rather suggest that the UK's force of non IR'ed EC 135/MD902 police and air ambulance pilots are marginally trained !
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Whirly.
These days, not without an IR.
Bilbo.
The 'non critical nif naf' are actually some of the most important points in running a safe and highly professional IFR corporate helicopter. Placing a low time VFR pilot (as I once was) into this role increases the risk and complication for minimal perceived financial benefit to the operator and client. Yes, training new pilots for the future is important but there is a limit; we have done so but an IR and some experience is an absolute prerequsite.
What has happened to Martin Barclay the originator of this thread?
These days, not without an IR.
Bilbo.
The 'non critical nif naf' are actually some of the most important points in running a safe and highly professional IFR corporate helicopter. Placing a low time VFR pilot (as I once was) into this role increases the risk and complication for minimal perceived financial benefit to the operator and client. Yes, training new pilots for the future is important but there is a limit; we have done so but an IR and some experience is an absolute prerequsite.
What has happened to Martin Barclay the originator of this thread?
902Jon;
Very possibly!
...but does that happen to the the IR'd BAS guys?
Curiously the non IR'd police pilots enjoy twice as much dedicated instrument training than the IR'd guys, in order to maintain their night currency.
or risk them going to better paid employment
...but does that happen to the the IR'd BAS guys?
Curiously the non IR'd police pilots enjoy twice as much dedicated instrument training than the IR'd guys, in order to maintain their night currency.
Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for all the helpful comments posted on here, plus all the pms, as was stated earlier I will not reply to pms as the reason for the original post was to just get some back up info, not to undercut our Consultants in any way.
Some have stated the gen given here should infact be coming from the Company we are using, it is! I simply wanted to validate that info from another source, in business it is useful to take a number of opinions even if they are sometimes conflicting. Its not that we dont trust the consultants, quite the contary, the info they have given and in particular insisted on has been backed up by you guys.
We feel the ex mil guy with the direct line to our Chairman is giving poor advice, (well he would say that wouldn't he
classic) We will be insisting on an IR, as our consultants have stressed on numerous occasions and I feel the salary we have in mind is pretty much correct. Remember it is itro £70000.
I am sorry for not replying to the genuine people who have pmd re jobs and advice, but I am a man of my word.
Regards
Martin Grade ( not Barclay!!!)
Some have stated the gen given here should infact be coming from the Company we are using, it is! I simply wanted to validate that info from another source, in business it is useful to take a number of opinions even if they are sometimes conflicting. Its not that we dont trust the consultants, quite the contary, the info they have given and in particular insisted on has been backed up by you guys.
We feel the ex mil guy with the direct line to our Chairman is giving poor advice, (well he would say that wouldn't he
classic) We will be insisting on an IR, as our consultants have stressed on numerous occasions and I feel the salary we have in mind is pretty much correct. Remember it is itro £70000.I am sorry for not replying to the genuine people who have pmd re jobs and advice, but I am a man of my word.
Regards
Martin Grade ( not Barclay!!!)
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PHIL77:
I know how you get instrument rated, but following your argument, how do you suggest a low timer should get experienced in multi-crew IFR operations?
Or is it safe enough to have the 250 hour guy (or the inexperienced recent VFR guy) assist in carrying 12 roughnecks, but not safe enough for the CEO - and all that with much less workload in a fancy SPIFR EC155 rather than a dual pilot S-76A or AS332L1?
I know how you get instrument rated, but following your argument, how do you suggest a low timer should get experienced in multi-crew IFR operations?
Or is it safe enough to have the 250 hour guy (or the inexperienced recent VFR guy) assist in carrying 12 roughnecks, but not safe enough for the CEO - and all that with much less workload in a fancy SPIFR EC155 rather than a dual pilot S-76A or AS332L1?
All North Sea pilots are required to be instrument rated - there are no VFR guys carrying 12 roughnecks in Europe. What I was suggesting was that a relatively inexperienced co-pilot (1200-1500 hrs/2-3 years North Sea) in the left seat would be advantageous over a purely VFR co-pilot. Understanding 2-crew IFR proceedures when the weather is cr*p and the s**t is hitting the fan, must be helpful to the captain.
I was not questioning the necessity of an IR, that's a given. I was arguing the experience side: why does the Co-Pilot have to fly offshore first to be qualified in the left seat?
Avoid imitations
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This issue with non-IR'd, low time (+/- 250 hours) co-pilots in the LHS of a corporate machine has cropped up recently in our organisation following a question from the insurer.
Some thoughts: A very low time CPLH pilot still needs to build and reinforce basic handling skills in all weathers. A VIP/corporate co-pilot's job isn't the best place to do that.
The LHS pilot really needs to be able to retrieve things in an emergency, for example if the RHS pilot became incapacitated. Could such an inexperienced pilot fly an ILS to lowest approach minima in very poor weather?
This sounds very cruel but it's true...some low-time pilots I've flown with are a liability in the cockpit for one reason or another and I'd rather just have their weight in fuel and fly SPIFR instead...
Some thoughts: A very low time CPLH pilot still needs to build and reinforce basic handling skills in all weathers. A VIP/corporate co-pilot's job isn't the best place to do that.
The LHS pilot really needs to be able to retrieve things in an emergency, for example if the RHS pilot became incapacitated. Could such an inexperienced pilot fly an ILS to lowest approach minima in very poor weather?
This sounds very cruel but it's true...some low-time pilots I've flown with are a liability in the cockpit for one reason or another and I'd rather just have their weight in fuel and fly SPIFR instead...
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Phil77
He doesn't. But I don't know of any other place where a low-time IFR pilot is going to build IF experience at the rate they will on the North Sea. The average North Sea driver is probably flying 600hrs+ per year with 30% or more being full IF. Plus with flying procedural approaches to platforms by day & night it is the fastest way to gain experience.
ShyTorque
At my first job with Bond (as it was) at North Denes (150 hr pilot) I and many of my co-pilot friends were told that we were just 75kgs of unusable fuel 
Ah the days before CRM......
why does the Co-Pilot have to fly offshore first to be qualified in the left seat?
ShyTorque
and I'd rather just have their weight in fuel and fly SPIFR instead...
Ah the days before CRM......