CAA Set to abolish Registered Training Facilities
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CAA Set to abolish Registered Training Facilities
I receive a flyer from training.com CAA it says this may effect your business
They are considering allowing JAR to remove all (RTFs) and convert them to (TRA)
This will seriously effect all flight training in the UK training costs will double,
It will be difficult to find a training facility.
All instructors with a PPL with grandfather rights will be forced to stop instructing or work under a CPL chief pilot and the next thing will be the need to have a CPL to instruct. I along with most of the (RTFs) will be forced out of business. I will seek compensation for the removal of my ability to use all my ratings.
The next thing will be no SVFR at night and no IMC rating.
We need to all get together to stop these fools killing our PPL flying world.
Please note that consultation period for NPA-2008-22d "Authority and Organisation Requirements - Certification Specifications for Aeroplane Flight Simulation Training Devices "CS-FSTD(A)"" has been extended until 15 Apr 2009.
See: http://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewnpa/id_55
To place comments please logon at EASA CRT application
For further information please contact Rulemaking Process Support at [email protected]
They are considering allowing JAR to remove all (RTFs) and convert them to (TRA)
This will seriously effect all flight training in the UK training costs will double,
It will be difficult to find a training facility.
All instructors with a PPL with grandfather rights will be forced to stop instructing or work under a CPL chief pilot and the next thing will be the need to have a CPL to instruct. I along with most of the (RTFs) will be forced out of business. I will seek compensation for the removal of my ability to use all my ratings.
The next thing will be no SVFR at night and no IMC rating.
We need to all get together to stop these fools killing our PPL flying world.
Please note that consultation period for NPA-2008-22d "Authority and Organisation Requirements - Certification Specifications for Aeroplane Flight Simulation Training Devices "CS-FSTD(A)"" has been extended until 15 Apr 2009.
See: http://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewnpa/id_55
To place comments please logon at EASA CRT application
For further information please contact Rulemaking Process Support at [email protected]
Last edited by eddietcapt; 11th Feb 2009 at 02:01.
Seems to me it might be a good idea, instead ofletting any 'fly by night' set up a training business by posting the relevant paperwork to the CAA.
Might make some people more accountable, especially those who seem to think bending the rules to suit themselves is fine.
Might make some people more accountable, especially those who seem to think bending the rules to suit themselves is fine.
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I'm sorry that you feel your business and livlihood is going to suffer but there'a a few points I don't follow. If RTFs are to abolished and "converted" to TRAs (?), then please explain what a TRA is (Temporary Restricted Area?).
When you say "training costs" will double, you surely just mean your overheads rather than the hourly rate at which you charge lessons. If you do mean the latter, then that's a gross exaggeration; there is no way that there is double the hourly rate for R22 PPL traning between RTFs and FTOs. RTFs cannot do type-ratings so I don't follow how you'll lose the ability to use all your type ratings.It certainly isn't difficult to find FTOs.
Personally I think it's a good idea that the Chief Pilot holds a CPL. And the current JAA rules are that an FI(H) must hold a CPL if he/she wants to be paid for instructing so that's nothing new.
If anything, it looks as though the rules are being relaxed in that there are proposals to allow experienced PPLs (i.e. 500+ hours) to instruct for remuneration with only CPL theory and not have to take a CPL course.
I thought night flying was IFR and that there is no rotary IMC.
Cheers
Whirls
When you say "training costs" will double, you surely just mean your overheads rather than the hourly rate at which you charge lessons. If you do mean the latter, then that's a gross exaggeration; there is no way that there is double the hourly rate for R22 PPL traning between RTFs and FTOs. RTFs cannot do type-ratings so I don't follow how you'll lose the ability to use all your type ratings.It certainly isn't difficult to find FTOs.
All instructors with a PPL with grandfather rights will be forced to ....... work under a CPL chief pilot and the next thing will be the need to have a CPL to instruct.
If anything, it looks as though the rules are being relaxed in that there are proposals to allow experienced PPLs (i.e. 500+ hours) to instruct for remuneration with only CPL theory and not have to take a CPL course.
I thought night flying was IFR and that there is no rotary IMC.
Cheers
Whirls
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I thought night flying was IFR and that there is no rotary IMC.
Edit:
Ah, I think you meant rotary IMC rating.. no, there is no such thing, never has been.
If you read between the lines in the UK regs, all rotary night flying (i.e under IFR) can effectively be pseudo SVFR.
Alright then - IMC rating 
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CAA Set to abolish Registered Training Facilities
So why should we allow the CAA close down all the RFs?
Uk is the only country in Europe where a PPL with a night rating my fly at night under SVFR a PPL my instruct and get paid if he has a grandfather right. PPL A have been given a BCPL. It would be impossible for all the RF to set up and operate a TRO the aim of this thread was to inform RFs and Professional business people with PPLH and there own helicopter that the end is in sight for flying for fun. Soon all the instruction will given by young instructors building hours.
Uk is the only country in Europe where a PPL with a night rating my fly at night under SVFR a PPL my instruct and get paid if he has a grandfather right. PPL A have been given a BCPL. It would be impossible for all the RF to set up and operate a TRO the aim of this thread was to inform RFs and Professional business people with PPLH and there own helicopter that the end is in sight for flying for fun. Soon all the instruction will given by young instructors building hours.
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low hour CPL
Although i may not fully understand the ins and out of all the abreviated terms as i am relativly new to rotary flying, (3years 400hrs)
i have to agree with eddietcapt... in that during my training i had three or four instructors due to my regular one being away on other business etc.
two out of the four didnt hold a cpl, the two that did hold their cpl - i refused to learn with after just a few lessons.
i suppose its like anything else - the one who has the experience ie: 1000's of hours has usually been there, done it, hat, tee shirt etc... and in my opinion is the better instructor.......
the low hour cpl's were learning as they were teaching - dont fly over water, lets not do too many auto's, trees oooh - keep away from them......
in short - i was taught the what if approach - by a very experienced pilot and to date still have that extra lesson as i feel you never stop learning how to fly.... much the same as your car test - you take your test - then you learn how to drive !!!
licenced airfields fto's, RF's abc's .......... fact is - most people (not all...) who want to learn to fly a helicopter has the dosh to own one and operate it from their home - or at the very least take it home from time to time !!! and plonk it in the garden...
whats the point of doing all the training from an airfield where theres a nice long strip of tarmak a cafe full of fixed wing people chewig the fat.....
the heli doesnt need all this, surley it would be better to be tought what you will actually do with the machine than do it after your test and risk it going tits up ?
like it does many times........ unfortunatly !!
how many of you others were tought - up for a think not down for a look ! when you accidently get into cloud or low vis....?????
the cpl's responce was rubbish - get it down -.......
not saying all flying schools are the same that are based at airfields there probably are some really good ones with very experienced pilots -
but in the short time i have been flying most i have visited seem to be on some sort of ego trip - stiring the brown stuff at everone else in the industry who is just trying to make a living !!
just my opion -
i have to agree with eddietcapt... in that during my training i had three or four instructors due to my regular one being away on other business etc.
two out of the four didnt hold a cpl, the two that did hold their cpl - i refused to learn with after just a few lessons.
i suppose its like anything else - the one who has the experience ie: 1000's of hours has usually been there, done it, hat, tee shirt etc... and in my opinion is the better instructor.......
the low hour cpl's were learning as they were teaching - dont fly over water, lets not do too many auto's, trees oooh - keep away from them......
in short - i was taught the what if approach - by a very experienced pilot and to date still have that extra lesson as i feel you never stop learning how to fly.... much the same as your car test - you take your test - then you learn how to drive !!!
licenced airfields fto's, RF's abc's .......... fact is - most people (not all...) who want to learn to fly a helicopter has the dosh to own one and operate it from their home - or at the very least take it home from time to time !!! and plonk it in the garden...
whats the point of doing all the training from an airfield where theres a nice long strip of tarmak a cafe full of fixed wing people chewig the fat.....
the heli doesnt need all this, surley it would be better to be tought what you will actually do with the machine than do it after your test and risk it going tits up ?
like it does many times........ unfortunatly !!
how many of you others were tought - up for a think not down for a look ! when you accidently get into cloud or low vis....?????
the cpl's responce was rubbish - get it down -.......
not saying all flying schools are the same that are based at airfields there probably are some really good ones with very experienced pilots -
but in the short time i have been flying most i have visited seem to be on some sort of ego trip - stiring the brown stuff at everone else in the industry who is just trying to make a living !!
just my opion -
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I think what mr capt is talking about is here:-
http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/r/doc...%20Part-OR.pdf see page 9
unless someone can direct me somewhere else as what he is saying is hearsay without a valid link to confirm it.
where does it say that?
regards
CF
http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/r/doc...%20Part-OR.pdf see page 9
unless someone can direct me somewhere else as what he is saying is hearsay without a valid link to confirm it.
All instructors with a PPL with grandfather rights will be forced to stop instructing or work under a CPL chief pilot
regards
CF
I am still grasping the rightness of a PPL being allowed to give instruction....much less get paid for it.
But....understanding the CAA system as I do....there would be an almighty shortage of instructors otherwise.
But....understanding the CAA system as I do....there would be an almighty shortage of instructors otherwise.
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Please look at page 11 OR.ATO.210 the head of training must hold a CPL this excludes a PPL H with a grandfather exemption being head of training therefore removing his ability to continue to be his own boss and run his own training facility.
Where would such a person go to get a job? all the current permissions to train will be withdrawn and the students receiving training now will have to stop or find a TRO
If this happens will these instructors with RF be given jobs with the CAA or compensated?
Where would such a person go to get a job? all the current permissions to train will be withdrawn and the students receiving training now will have to stop or find a TRO
If this happens will these instructors with RF be given jobs with the CAA or compensated?
If this happens will these instructors with RF be given jobs with the CAA or compensated?
Here's your ticket to board the "Gravy Train"!
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Originally Posted by Page 11 as above
Section 2 Additional
requirements for ATOs providing training for licences and
ratings other than the LPL, PPL, SPL and BPL.
OR.ATO.210 Personnel requirements
(a) Head of Training (HT). The nominated HT shall:
(1) have overall responsibility for ensuring satisfactory integration of flying
training, synthetic flight training and theoretical knowledge instruction, and
for supervising the progress of individual students; and
(2) have extensive experience in training as a flight instructor for professional
pilot licences and possess a sound managerial capability.
...........
requirements for ATOs providing training for licences and
ratings other than the LPL, PPL, SPL and BPL.
OR.ATO.210 Personnel requirements
(a) Head of Training (HT). The nominated HT shall:
(1) have overall responsibility for ensuring satisfactory integration of flying
training, synthetic flight training and theoretical knowledge instruction, and
for supervising the progress of individual students; and
(2) have extensive experience in training as a flight instructor for professional
pilot licences and possess a sound managerial capability.
...........
HoT does not have to be the most senior personnel. Cheers
Whirls
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Point (2) above states that the HoT should have extensive experience instructing for professional licences i.e. should have instructed to CPL level and more so it's not as simple as just getting a CPL.
Actually, it doesn't specifically say that HoT needs to have a CPL but I can't think of any circumstance where one could have said "extensive experience" and not hold a CPL.
But, I still think it's irrelevant for a school which only wants to instruct up to PPL level.
Cheers
Whirls
Actually, it doesn't specifically say that HoT needs to have a CPL but I can't think of any circumstance where one could have said "extensive experience" and not hold a CPL.
But, I still think it's irrelevant for a school which only wants to instruct up to PPL level.
Cheers
Whirls
nellycopter, I don't suppose that eddietcapt was your instructor by any chance? Or are you one and the same?
1000's of hours don't neccesarily mean a better instructor.
Find an instructor with the knowledge, skill and ability to teach well. Also, believe it or not, dynamic take-offs every time and low level arse-ing about aren't just what helicopers are about.
I personally feel that if you wish to be a professional helicopter instructor, then you should hold at the very least, a CPL level qualification.
1000's of hours don't neccesarily mean a better instructor.
Find an instructor with the knowledge, skill and ability to teach well. Also, believe it or not, dynamic take-offs every time and low level arse-ing about aren't just what helicopers are about.
I personally feel that if you wish to be a professional helicopter instructor, then you should hold at the very least, a CPL level qualification.
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I agree with ms whirlygig.
it doesnt say that the HoT needs a CPL
it doesnt say that instructors who qualified under the former national arrangements will be forced to stop instructing for PPL
CF
it doesnt say that the HoT needs a CPL
it doesnt say that instructors who qualified under the former national arrangements will be forced to stop instructing for PPL
CF
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nellycopter
Nellycopter,
fantastic post, and you are SO right. Completely agree with your point of view.
But don't expect a lot of sympathy on this forum.
Baby Pilots being taught by Baby Instructors - no wonder the drop-out rate is so high for PPLs that can afford to buy a helicopter. The fear and anxiety seeps from teacher to teachee - just as you imply.
As for the RTF and FTO changes, this has been in the public domain for a long while. Get used to it.
If any of you care to check out the number of training centres (all types) for pilots (rotary) in the UK compared to all other countries, particularly the USA, you'll be staggered to see how over-supplied we are in the the UK.
Apologies in advance to any one who takes exception to this post, please feel free to PM me.
Big Ls. (2,500 hours TT and still a PPL)
fantastic post, and you are SO right. Completely agree with your point of view.
But don't expect a lot of sympathy on this forum.
Baby Pilots being taught by Baby Instructors - no wonder the drop-out rate is so high for PPLs that can afford to buy a helicopter. The fear and anxiety seeps from teacher to teachee - just as you imply.
As for the RTF and FTO changes, this has been in the public domain for a long while. Get used to it.
If any of you care to check out the number of training centres (all types) for pilots (rotary) in the UK compared to all other countries, particularly the USA, you'll be staggered to see how over-supplied we are in the the UK.
Apologies in advance to any one who takes exception to this post, please feel free to PM me.
Big Ls. (2,500 hours TT and still a PPL)
Nellycopter,
There is a good reason that training has to take place on an airfield and it is nothing to do with long runways.
Proportionately more accidents and incidents happen whilst training. If you train at an airfield you are going to have someone watching what you are doing, be it a Flight Information Officer or full ATC. If you get it wrong even in a small way, they can raise the alarm or simply enquire if you are OK. Even better if it does go very wrong there will be Fire and Rescue cover available to quickly come to your aid.
If you fly around in fields, they are likely to be away from habitation so you do annoy anyone. If it goes wrong then, even if it is a survivable accident, you may not get help for hours and I have even seen it turn into days. It is surprising how a forest can swallow an aircraft and leave no trace.
Thats why the CAA (and any sensible Authority) stipulate training at licenced airfields. It isn't designed to generate them funds (for a change) it's for your safety.
So once you have learnt to handle the aircraft in a large safe area then get your instructor to take you to your operating area and show you how to safely operate in and out of it.
FNW
There is a good reason that training has to take place on an airfield and it is nothing to do with long runways.
Proportionately more accidents and incidents happen whilst training. If you train at an airfield you are going to have someone watching what you are doing, be it a Flight Information Officer or full ATC. If you get it wrong even in a small way, they can raise the alarm or simply enquire if you are OK. Even better if it does go very wrong there will be Fire and Rescue cover available to quickly come to your aid.
If you fly around in fields, they are likely to be away from habitation so you do annoy anyone. If it goes wrong then, even if it is a survivable accident, you may not get help for hours and I have even seen it turn into days. It is surprising how a forest can swallow an aircraft and leave no trace.
Thats why the CAA (and any sensible Authority) stipulate training at licenced airfields. It isn't designed to generate them funds (for a change) it's for your safety.
So once you have learnt to handle the aircraft in a large safe area then get your instructor to take you to your operating area and show you how to safely operate in and out of it.
FNW
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Why would it improve safety to train on an airfield? It's just a bogus rule, 'Big Brother' is watching you all the time. General Aviation and the flight training industry would be much better of without all these costly rules.
It's simply going from bad to worse with GA / Flighttraining, and in a few years there won't be much left. It's such a pity.......
It's simply going from bad to worse with GA / Flighttraining, and in a few years there won't be much left. It's such a pity.......
HillerBee
I don't believe you are any more or less likely to have an accident if training on an airfield or any other big open space (although you would hope the likelyhood of encountering any FOD would be reduced on an airfield). What you do have is a much greater chance of somebody noticing and doing something about it which must surely improve the overall safety of the operation.
For once (perhaps once only) its quite a sensible precaution to train almost entirely on an airfield for the near ground stuff, I do think we should be able to carry off airfield landings during PPL training to the ground to anywhere which would usually be legal, its a bit daft to be allowed to do so on qualification and not have had the opportunity (officially) during training.
I do however think you are right about the future of GA unfortunately
GS
I don't believe you are any more or less likely to have an accident if training on an airfield or any other big open space (although you would hope the likelyhood of encountering any FOD would be reduced on an airfield). What you do have is a much greater chance of somebody noticing and doing something about it which must surely improve the overall safety of the operation.
For once (perhaps once only) its quite a sensible precaution to train almost entirely on an airfield for the near ground stuff, I do think we should be able to carry off airfield landings during PPL training to the ground to anywhere which would usually be legal, its a bit daft to be allowed to do so on qualification and not have had the opportunity (officially) during training.
I do however think you are right about the future of GA unfortunately
GS