Learning with 100% turbine hours
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Learning with 100% turbine hours
My original plan was to learn to fly helicopters in a R22. I was going to do 200 hours then teach for a while until I got nearer to 1000 hours then try to get a job in the industry. However, recently the idea has got in my head of getting my licence with 100 hours in a B206 instead and then trying to get a job straight from school. Do you think this is a good idea or bad, and why?
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I'm confused.
Your post doesn't give an indication of what you want to do and where you want to do it. First impressions are that it would be in the UK, given your location, but looking back at some of your previous posts I note that you have an FAA medical and intend to work in Canada. Some clarification would help in getting the most appropriate advice.
With regards to your turbine question; although turbine hours count when applying for a turbine job, I'm not sure that it would make much of a difference if you only have minimum hours anyway. Learning on a B206 is going to be very costly compared to an R22 and you might find it difficult to find a school that would let you fly one solo as part of your initial PPL training.
You mention teaching to get 1000 hours and then getting a job in the industry. If this teaching is flight instructing, then this is a job in the industry!
My advice would be to go for the most cost-effective option to gain your licence, leaving more money available for hour-building, IR, etc. With minimum hours you're going to struggle to get that first job, turbine experience or not.
I'm not sure how the helicopter industry is in Canada, but in the UK it doesn't seem as buoyant as it was, although there is always work for those with a good track record; it's getting that first opening to prove yourself that's the problem.
With regards to your turbine question; although turbine hours count when applying for a turbine job, I'm not sure that it would make much of a difference if you only have minimum hours anyway. Learning on a B206 is going to be very costly compared to an R22 and you might find it difficult to find a school that would let you fly one solo as part of your initial PPL training.
You mention teaching to get 1000 hours and then getting a job in the industry. If this teaching is flight instructing, then this is a job in the industry!
My advice would be to go for the most cost-effective option to gain your licence, leaving more money available for hour-building, IR, etc. With minimum hours you're going to struggle to get that first job, turbine experience or not.
I'm not sure how the helicopter industry is in Canada, but in the UK it doesn't seem as buoyant as it was, although there is always work for those with a good track record; it's getting that first opening to prove yourself that's the problem.
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100 hours in a Jet Ranger would cost more than 200 hours in an R22 and it wouldn't be enough to give you a commercial licence and therefore you wouldn't get paid for any work, therefore, no job with school!!
To instruct, you need at least 250 hours plus a 30 hour course plus CPL/ATPL theory. If you actually want to get paid for this instructing, you will also need to hold a CPL.
Cheers
Whirls
To instruct, you need at least 250 hours plus a 30 hour course plus CPL/ATPL theory. If you actually want to get paid for this instructing, you will also need to hold a CPL.
Cheers
Whirls
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If I'm not mistaken, in the UK you also need clearance to use a 4-seat helicopter for basic training.
I would go for maximum hours, I think.
Phil
I would go for maximum hours, I think.
Phil
I believe its clearance for a helicopter with more than 4 seats and also that RTFs can only conduct training on Piston Engine helis unless they have special approval (which used to involve writing a turbine course on a par with TRTOs).
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With a brand new licence and 100 hours, or what ever it is in the UK, you will still have just a hundred hours. The fact you did it in a 206 won't matter a great deal because it's still just a hundred hours.
The jobs most folks compete for with VERY low total time are more than likely those that are done in a 300, R22 or maybe R44. You won't have that option.
I'm with Phil. With very low time, having the most possible hours is the thing that will be of most benefit to you.
For the same money you would spend doing a CPL in a jetbanger you could probably do your licence in a 22, a rating in a 44 and another 10? or 20? hours in a 44. While still a bit on the skinny side, that would make someone with entry level total hours more competitive for an entry level position in the industry.
The other things you will need, which in my opinion are of the more important variety, are perseverance, tenacity, a preparedness to listen and learn and a bit of good luck.
GP
The jobs most folks compete for with VERY low total time are more than likely those that are done in a 300, R22 or maybe R44. You won't have that option.
I'm with Phil. With very low time, having the most possible hours is the thing that will be of most benefit to you.
For the same money you would spend doing a CPL in a jetbanger you could probably do your licence in a 22, a rating in a 44 and another 10? or 20? hours in a 44. While still a bit on the skinny side, that would make someone with entry level total hours more competitive for an entry level position in the industry.
The other things you will need, which in my opinion are of the more important variety, are perseverance, tenacity, a preparedness to listen and learn and a bit of good luck.
GP
More than four seats requires special permission....turbine takes special permission....training must start and end at a licensed airfield....each aircraft flown is a "type rating"....different written tests for each engine (piston/recip)!!!
How long do you have to wait for the ink on the paperwork to dry in the CAA admin wallah's office before you can get your documents and get to flying after leaping each hurdle?
Do you guys ever wonder why the CAA has all these silly rules that cost you individually a pile of money? Every wonder why they are able to get away with it?
My suggestion would be to get a student visa, come to the USA....find and marry a Yank....and find work here and skip all that happy BS!
The way Sterling is going....it will be a better paid job here anyway!
How long do you have to wait for the ink on the paperwork to dry in the CAA admin wallah's office before you can get your documents and get to flying after leaping each hurdle?
Do you guys ever wonder why the CAA has all these silly rules that cost you individually a pile of money? Every wonder why they are able to get away with it?
My suggestion would be to get a student visa, come to the USA....find and marry a Yank....and find work here and skip all that happy BS!
The way Sterling is going....it will be a better paid job here anyway!
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Or join the military training system. We were trained from scratch on 12 seater, single turbine helicopters then moved to a bigger twin turbine type before going to an Operational Conversion Unit 
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idlestop, yes, I guess so, or Snow White and her seven dwarves plus a few spares. No fuel, mind.
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Davy,
Where did you suddenly pop up from?
SIBUK,
Seriously, a bare licence on single turbines would leave a pilot almost unemployable. You would almost certainly have to instruct because you would have no experience for anything else - but instruct on what? You have to provide what the customer wants or can afford; unfortunately that means instructing on single piston engined helicopters.
Shy
If i had all the grades to go to the military i would have long ago.
If i had all the grades to go to the military i would have long ago.
SIBUK,
Seriously, a bare licence on single turbines would leave a pilot almost unemployable. You would almost certainly have to instruct because you would have no experience for anything else - but instruct on what? You have to provide what the customer wants or can afford; unfortunately that means instructing on single piston engined helicopters.
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Davy,
Look at it from the viewpoint of a potential employer. With 100 hrs (and not much of that P1) what sort of work do you think an employer would think you were safe and competent to do? In a single turbine, it is going to be single pilot, so you would be in charge of the commercial flight.[Incidentally, I think Whirlygig is probably right that you would need more than 100 hours to get a JAA commercial licence. I am gratefully out of touch with that sort of information these days].
Others have outlined some of the difficulties of getting the training done. There are also issues with sending a very low time pilot solo on a turbine during training.
Even if an employer could be convinced to give you a job, insurance would be a problem too, probably.
In the end it is a case of supply and demand. In any normal industry a company would train its staff, but aviation, especially heles is different. They can get away without, so they do.
There will be very few opportunities for such a pilot to work: in summary, as close to no chance at all of getting a job as makes no difference.
The problem these days is that because the various regulators have f****d the system up there is no sensible route to progressing from licence issue. It may not have produced the best instruction (arguably), but the pre-JAR "hours building route" via PPL instructor gave someone who was keen a fighting chance.
Depending upon the market, there is a possibility of offshore co-pilot, but generally, the offshore operators are looking for an IR (which is lots more money). They have had their fingers burned with training non-IR holders.
Look at it from the viewpoint of a potential employer. With 100 hrs (and not much of that P1) what sort of work do you think an employer would think you were safe and competent to do? In a single turbine, it is going to be single pilot, so you would be in charge of the commercial flight.[Incidentally, I think Whirlygig is probably right that you would need more than 100 hours to get a JAA commercial licence. I am gratefully out of touch with that sort of information these days].
Others have outlined some of the difficulties of getting the training done. There are also issues with sending a very low time pilot solo on a turbine during training.
Even if an employer could be convinced to give you a job, insurance would be a problem too, probably.
In the end it is a case of supply and demand. In any normal industry a company would train its staff, but aviation, especially heles is different. They can get away without, so they do.
There will be very few opportunities for such a pilot to work: in summary, as close to no chance at all of getting a job as makes no difference.
The problem these days is that because the various regulators have f****d the system up there is no sensible route to progressing from licence issue. It may not have produced the best instruction (arguably), but the pre-JAR "hours building route" via PPL instructor gave someone who was keen a fighting chance.
Depending upon the market, there is a possibility of offshore co-pilot, but generally, the offshore operators are looking for an IR (which is lots more money). They have had their fingers burned with training non-IR holders.
