Newcastle Westpac 412.
Interesting interpretation of the Maintenance Manual, Chapter 5 Conditional Insp 5-30 (Blade strike or rotational system torque spike) clearly states, If a blade is sufficiently damaged to require replacement, main rotor hub req's over haul, how could they change a damaged blade in the field then fly home?, i've been involved in the odd one or two blade strikes on 412's some with minor blade damage but ok to fly home and others requiring blades, hub and MGB change in the field, there isn't realy a grey area here, its stuffed and you change the lot or its ok to fly, to me if the blade or blades contacted trees so hard debris smashed the windscreen and damaged the airframe and a blade has to be changed you are up for major component changes before it fly's again!
I hope i'm wrong and it was only a press Bullsh1t story (poetic licence in the news story attached by Big Mike) again , or that helo should still be in a padock 4 km from the impact with the tree waiting for major work
I hope i'm wrong and it was only a press Bullsh1t story (poetic licence in the news story attached by Big Mike) again , or that helo should still be in a padock 4 km from the impact with the tree waiting for major work
Last edited by Blackhawk9; 27th Dec 2008 at 11:18.
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'The pilot and crew are trained to the highest possible standard and that has saved everyone on board' said crew chief Graham Nickisson.
I think Mr Nickisson needs to have a hard look at his operation if he thinks his crew are trained to "the highest possible standard"
I would have thought a professional crew would not have put themselves in that situation they found themselves in the first place, proper decision making was clearly lacking given the fact they attempted 3 times to reach the accident site, in low cloud high terrain? Where was the CRM?
I think Mr Nickisson needs to have a hard look at his operation if he thinks his crew are trained to "the highest possible standard"
I would have thought a professional crew would not have put themselves in that situation they found themselves in the first place, proper decision making was clearly lacking given the fact they attempted 3 times to reach the accident site, in low cloud high terrain? Where was the CRM?
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Well said Blackhawk9 i was thinking the same thing.
I hope they have not made a seriously bad maintenance decision on top of an ops incident for the sake of tying to gloss things over.
They tend to be the worst ones to make and normally come back to haunt you.
I hope they have not made a seriously bad maintenance decision on top of an ops incident for the sake of tying to gloss things over.
They tend to be the worst ones to make and normally come back to haunt you.
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Interesting comment that Jinglejim had..."a professional crew would not have put themselves in that situation"
Are we to assume then that professional crews never have human failings... and that CRM is the answer to all of our prayers?
Clearly this captain, while having been in receipt of quality training with this outfit ( if what is said here is true) found himself in a predicament where he wished he wasnt.
So what would solve this type of thing?
It sounds as though this company has done all it can to avail the pilots to training and decision making...Is there a factor of this being a high profile incident, ie plane crash, that swayed the captain into pushing the envelope? Is ego at play to a degree?
I think the situation solves itself in that he (and we) learnt a lesson here....and maybe we all should keep this in mind when we decide to "give something a go"...whatever our reasoning.
I think that attempting to punish an operator on Pprune, because of tall poppy syndrome is harsh....we all should be looking at ....hey it can happen to a good operator....how should this type of thing be avoided in future.....Because they put some effort into providing a safe service through investing in training doesnt mean they are exempt from incident....or from on the spot decisionmaking which goes awry.
I make no comment on the 3 attempts or the flight of the helicopter after the work in field....as Im in doubt as to its truth.
The decisionmaking of the crew is clearly in question here, its lucky it turned out as well as it did.....Think about what happened here and take it home with you....Im sure this crew has...and will be more capabably equiped in future......but be careful before you throw those stones, you may find yourself looking down the barrel one day.
Are we to assume then that professional crews never have human failings... and that CRM is the answer to all of our prayers?
Clearly this captain, while having been in receipt of quality training with this outfit ( if what is said here is true) found himself in a predicament where he wished he wasnt.
So what would solve this type of thing?
It sounds as though this company has done all it can to avail the pilots to training and decision making...Is there a factor of this being a high profile incident, ie plane crash, that swayed the captain into pushing the envelope? Is ego at play to a degree?
I think the situation solves itself in that he (and we) learnt a lesson here....and maybe we all should keep this in mind when we decide to "give something a go"...whatever our reasoning.
I think that attempting to punish an operator on Pprune, because of tall poppy syndrome is harsh....we all should be looking at ....hey it can happen to a good operator....how should this type of thing be avoided in future.....Because they put some effort into providing a safe service through investing in training doesnt mean they are exempt from incident....or from on the spot decisionmaking which goes awry.
I make no comment on the 3 attempts or the flight of the helicopter after the work in field....as Im in doubt as to its truth.
The decisionmaking of the crew is clearly in question here, its lucky it turned out as well as it did.....Think about what happened here and take it home with you....Im sure this crew has...and will be more capabably equiped in future......but be careful before you throw those stones, you may find yourself looking down the barrel one day.
Do we know if the blade strike occurred before or after the survivor was winched out of the bush by the 139? If I recall, the video that was broadcast on the TV news shows the 139 winching the survivor out of the bush with the 412 hovering close by. I can't imagine after a blade strike as described that the 412 would hang around and watch whilst the 139 completed the rescue. Makes me suspect they went in after the 139 departed the scene, and their job was to recover the deceased passenger. I didn't see much in the way of low cloud on the wide shot of the winch. I'm only speculating here, but it would be an interesting development if the 412 whacked the trees after the 139 completed the rescue. No doubt all will be revealled at the subsequent enquiry.
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From my observations, the standard at Westpac Newcastle is decidedly "ordinary" and they have a long history of covering up their mistakes. Amazing how you can make a massive stuff up and yet come out of it as "heroes". It is very concerning that professionalism and safety get pushed aside for the sake of a good story or a good media release.
And yes, everyone makes mistakes (I should know I've made enough of my own) but you don't nearly kill yourself and then tell everyone how well trained and fantastic you are.
And yes, everyone makes mistakes (I should know I've made enough of my own) but you don't nearly kill yourself and then tell everyone how well trained and fantastic you are.
Something I have noticed before with the Westpac 412 SP at Newcastle they are about the only 412 operator in Australia operating with their Nitesun in the forward position just under the Radar ,all the other operators have moved their Nitesuns back to just fwd of the fwd crosstube , in the Fwd position as on the Newcastle machine then the aircraft is limited to a max speed of 100kts (as per flight manual sup) , how often has that machine been flown over 100kts with the Nitesun fitted? (which is why all the other operators moved it back , as in the aft position no speed restriction applies!)
But obviously their Engineering and Operations department know this and Placarded the instument panel with a decal ( Max Speed 100 Kts with Nitesun fitted)and enforce the speed restriction......
But obviously their Engineering and Operations department know this and Placarded the instument panel with a decal ( Max Speed 100 Kts with Nitesun fitted)and enforce the speed restriction......
Heliduck Observation 1 - The quantity & quality(?!?!) of comment on an incident is proportional to the size of the machine involved. Knew a bloke who clipped a tree in an R44 once & he lost his job with barely a whisper on pprune - hero to zero!
Heliduck Observation 2 - As mentioned previously those of us not present don't know the facts & therefore shouldn't comment, but I will anyway. The way I see it there is only 2 possible scenarios which took place - the pilot knew the trees were there & decided to fly through them with his rotor blades or the pilot didn't know the trees were there & inadvertently (read **** himself) flew through them with his rotor blades. Either way, with most employers he would be called a few things, but hero isn't one of them.
Heliduck Observation 3 - Bloody hell they were lucky! I'm very happy they all walked away from that one. I couldn't imagine the stress levels in the cockpit going inadvertent IMC that close to trees(if that's what happened). A good day for all that they landed skids down, & after surviving that experience the pilot will no doubt have different thought processes if ever faced with those decisions again.
Heliduck Observation 2 - As mentioned previously those of us not present don't know the facts & therefore shouldn't comment, but I will anyway. The way I see it there is only 2 possible scenarios which took place - the pilot knew the trees were there & decided to fly through them with his rotor blades or the pilot didn't know the trees were there & inadvertently (read **** himself) flew through them with his rotor blades. Either way, with most employers he would be called a few things, but hero isn't one of them.
Heliduck Observation 3 - Bloody hell they were lucky! I'm very happy they all walked away from that one. I couldn't imagine the stress levels in the cockpit going inadvertent IMC that close to trees(if that's what happened). A good day for all that they landed skids down, & after surviving that experience the pilot will no doubt have different thought processes if ever faced with those decisions again.
BH9...do you have some intimate knowledge of how operations and maintainence are conducted at Newcastle?
I don't work for them and never have but you are starting to make some serious accusations and assumptions (crews and engineering routinely and knowingly breaking flight manual limitations, aircraft flying without appropriate maintainence action etc).
So enlighten us, how do you know what goes on there?
Turkey
I don't work for them and never have but you are starting to make some serious accusations and assumptions (crews and engineering routinely and knowingly breaking flight manual limitations, aircraft flying without appropriate maintainence action etc).
So enlighten us, how do you know what goes on there?
Turkey
Turkey, I don't know what goes on there.
But, having worked on one or two EMS equiped 412's both in oz and overseas and been involved in more blade strikes on 212's/412's than i'd like to (about 6) only 2 of these machines were within damage limits to keep flying all the others reqd major component changes due to the limits in the Maintenance Manual, so in that respect I find it hard to reason that the aircraft is in the major component maintenance class and not in the fly away class, given the description in the press and the fact they changed a blade in the field ,
the Nitesun install on the nose has caught out at least 2 operators I know of who were blissfully flying along at over 100Kts with that installation, the nose attachment point is the old 212 point and a 212 is lucky to do 100kts with a Nitesun on, the 412-FMS-12 Nitesun has no limitations for the performance of the a/c with the nite sun on BUT that is with the nitesun in the aft position (fwd of fwd cross tube)approx station +50, the fwd position is approx station -15, most operators operate a flir on the fwd positiom which has a climb limit on the a/c when fitted and the Nite sun on the rear position which does not have any restrictions on it.
Why did I bring this up , I have an enquiring mind and I like to see a/c operated correctly, by ALL operators, if all is above board no harm no fowl, if not....
But, having worked on one or two EMS equiped 412's both in oz and overseas and been involved in more blade strikes on 212's/412's than i'd like to (about 6) only 2 of these machines were within damage limits to keep flying all the others reqd major component changes due to the limits in the Maintenance Manual, so in that respect I find it hard to reason that the aircraft is in the major component maintenance class and not in the fly away class, given the description in the press and the fact they changed a blade in the field ,
the Nitesun install on the nose has caught out at least 2 operators I know of who were blissfully flying along at over 100Kts with that installation, the nose attachment point is the old 212 point and a 212 is lucky to do 100kts with a Nitesun on, the 412-FMS-12 Nitesun has no limitations for the performance of the a/c with the nite sun on BUT that is with the nitesun in the aft position (fwd of fwd cross tube)approx station +50, the fwd position is approx station -15, most operators operate a flir on the fwd positiom which has a climb limit on the a/c when fitted and the Nite sun on the rear position which does not have any restrictions on it.
Why did I bring this up , I have an enquiring mind and I like to see a/c operated correctly, by ALL operators, if all is above board no harm no fowl, if not....
Last edited by Blackhawk9; 28th Dec 2008 at 08:36.
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BH9
FYI
" A blade strile is any incident during which a rapid deceleration of the drive system occurs due to conact of the main or tail rotor blades with the ground, water, snow, dense vegetation, or any other object sufficinent to cause any of the following:
Main rotor blades- Any impact damage to the leading edge or lower skin which exceeds the limits spcified in Chapter 62. Any skin cracks"
There are other criteria but not relevent to this incident based on the info on this forum.
The Question is did the drive system experience "RAPID DECELERATION" ?
and what constitutes it?
FYI
" A blade strile is any incident during which a rapid deceleration of the drive system occurs due to conact of the main or tail rotor blades with the ground, water, snow, dense vegetation, or any other object sufficinent to cause any of the following:
Main rotor blades- Any impact damage to the leading edge or lower skin which exceeds the limits spcified in Chapter 62. Any skin cracks"
There are other criteria but not relevent to this incident based on the info on this forum.
The Question is did the drive system experience "RAPID DECELERATION" ?
and what constitutes it?
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Clarence
I'm interested to know how you come up with your observations, some facts to back them up would make a great read. You are obviously in the know when it comes to the goings on behind the scene there so do enlighten us. 
From my observations, the standard at Westpac Newcastle is decidedly "ordinary" and they have a long history of covering up their mistakes.
Oh LHSboy, where do I start!
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Blackhawk9.
What an impressive Resume, you are quite obviously qualified to make comment:
Most EMS pilots in Oz, [including myself] have never hit anything hard in their entire career, yet alone 6!!
Quite impressive.
What an impressive Resume, you are quite obviously qualified to make comment:
been involved in more blade strikes on 212's/412's than i'd like to (about 6) only 2 of these machines were within damage limits to keep flying all the others reqd major component changes
Quite impressive.