R44 Use By Date
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Back of Beyond
R44 Use By Date
Looking for some help from the illustrious PPruners!! I have a few questions.
What happens to an R44 when it either runs out of time or passes its Use By date? I understand they get rebuilt but don't understand the details.
If they are rebuilt, can for example a Raven 1 be rebuilt as a Raven 2?
When they are rebuilt what is the chance of selling them?
Cheers
AH
What happens to an R44 when it either runs out of time or passes its Use By date? I understand they get rebuilt but don't understand the details.
If they are rebuilt, can for example a Raven 1 be rebuilt as a Raven 2?
When they are rebuilt what is the chance of selling them?
Cheers
AH
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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From: Maders UK
Hi AH,
My Clipper II is almost 5 years old and has just had a 100h inspection at 632.0 hobbs time. I am very financially tied to a large construction project at present so am financially unable to change it for a few years but despite the astronomical cost of avgas can afford to continue flying it for the forseeable future. It flies very nicely, everything works and has no technical issues so I have no real reason to want to change it, except for that new car type feeling. Eventually if it gets to 12 years old I may send it off to the US for a rebuild - it is unlikely that it will make 2200 hrs unless times get hard and I end up leasing it to a flying school for extra income.
As I understand it the R44 hull has a base value (lower than normal at present I would imagine - the value of used Robbos is dropping significantly and you are buying (from the UK) at a good time (bad time for buying from the US). I heard an immaculate 4 year old Raven I went for £79k the other day with no damage history and only 300h on the clock! That must have hurt the seller, that is a third hand R22 price tag!!).
Depending on how the aircraft has become timed out (hobbs time vs years) determines what needs replacing at rebuild. For example your main rotor blades may still be OK as may certain other components saving you significant money wrt the rebuild. Their a rules governing this that the factory will be able to appraise you with.
Historically, I have heard of people making significant profit by containering timed out machines back to the factory, having the rebuild done and then selling them on. Best to start with the R44 airframe derivative you plan to stay with IMHO, there are subtle differences between clipper and raven and also Raven I and II although one would imagine that the latter upgrade would be more achievable during a rebuild than say Raven to Clipper conversion. You basically get a new machine for less than the cost of a new machine if you see what I mean?
The dollar rate was probably more favourably inclined towards such a containerage scheme a few months back. The companies that offer rebuild in the UK may be becoming a bit more competitive now due to the weakening pound.
Food for thought,
SB
My Clipper II is almost 5 years old and has just had a 100h inspection at 632.0 hobbs time. I am very financially tied to a large construction project at present so am financially unable to change it for a few years but despite the astronomical cost of avgas can afford to continue flying it for the forseeable future. It flies very nicely, everything works and has no technical issues so I have no real reason to want to change it, except for that new car type feeling. Eventually if it gets to 12 years old I may send it off to the US for a rebuild - it is unlikely that it will make 2200 hrs unless times get hard and I end up leasing it to a flying school for extra income.
As I understand it the R44 hull has a base value (lower than normal at present I would imagine - the value of used Robbos is dropping significantly and you are buying (from the UK) at a good time (bad time for buying from the US). I heard an immaculate 4 year old Raven I went for £79k the other day with no damage history and only 300h on the clock! That must have hurt the seller, that is a third hand R22 price tag!!).
Depending on how the aircraft has become timed out (hobbs time vs years) determines what needs replacing at rebuild. For example your main rotor blades may still be OK as may certain other components saving you significant money wrt the rebuild. Their a rules governing this that the factory will be able to appraise you with.
Historically, I have heard of people making significant profit by containering timed out machines back to the factory, having the rebuild done and then selling them on. Best to start with the R44 airframe derivative you plan to stay with IMHO, there are subtle differences between clipper and raven and also Raven I and II although one would imagine that the latter upgrade would be more achievable during a rebuild than say Raven to Clipper conversion. You basically get a new machine for less than the cost of a new machine if you see what I mean?
The dollar rate was probably more favourably inclined towards such a containerage scheme a few months back. The companies that offer rebuild in the UK may be becoming a bit more competitive now due to the weakening pound.
Food for thought,
SB
Better red than ...
Joined: Aug 2004
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,415
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From: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
I think the type certificate of the type (R1/ R2/ Clp 1/ Clp 2/ etc) would define the aircraft for ever.
The R2 has a different engine and slightly different parts for the tail rotor etc.
An Astro remains an Astro even if upgraded with oil filter kit, hydraulics kit, 10 hole panel, etc
I sense R44 sales in the UK have slowed of late - from new registrations each month
The R2 has a different engine and slightly different parts for the tail rotor etc.
An Astro remains an Astro even if upgraded with oil filter kit, hydraulics kit, 10 hole panel, etc
I sense R44 sales in the UK have slowed of late - from new registrations each month
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 199
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From: england
R44 for 79k
Scooter Boy,
I'ma tad sceptical about 79k price tag for a 4 year old Raven 1 with 1900 hours to run.
So sceptical, in fact that if you know of another one of that age etc, I'll buy it.
Big Ls.
I'ma tad sceptical about 79k price tag for a 4 year old Raven 1 with 1900 hours to run.
So sceptical, in fact that if you know of another one of that age etc, I'll buy it.
Big Ls.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: midlands
79k....
If true - and I doubt it very much - then it will have been a distressed sale.
£79k is way below its market value. If I entrusted somebody to get 'best price' and only ended up with £79k and, presumably even less than that after commissions etc. were deducted, then the rat is smelling strongly.
If a finance company owned it, they are well experienced in achieving best price and will have know exactly what it was worth.
Give us all the poop. It will make interesting reading.
Or, is it something you overheard in a pub.....
Give us the Reg.
JB
£79k is way below its market value. If I entrusted somebody to get 'best price' and only ended up with £79k and, presumably even less than that after commissions etc. were deducted, then the rat is smelling strongly.
If a finance company owned it, they are well experienced in achieving best price and will have know exactly what it was worth.
Give us all the poop. It will make interesting reading.
Or, is it something you overheard in a pub.....
Give us the Reg.
JB
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
From: Maders UK
Gents, the £79K sale is a true one - I have it on excellent authority.
Confidentiality prevents me from naming the owner but suffice it to say he wanted rid of the aircraft as he was upgrading to a bigger machine. He is not short of a bob or two but equally is no fool - I was amazed to hear he had let it go for so little though, it's not as though he needs the cash.
BigLs, I too would have found the cash at that price!
Redeye, I agree with your observation that there has been a serious drop in R44 sales, hopefully we will be out the other end of the CC soon and prices will recover, now would not appear to be a good time to sell though.
SB
Confidentiality prevents me from naming the owner but suffice it to say he wanted rid of the aircraft as he was upgrading to a bigger machine. He is not short of a bob or two but equally is no fool - I was amazed to hear he had let it go for so little though, it's not as though he needs the cash.
BigLs, I too would have found the cash at that price!
Redeye, I agree with your observation that there has been a serious drop in R44 sales, hopefully we will be out the other end of the CC soon and prices will recover, now would not appear to be a good time to sell though.
SB
