Flying at Night
Avoid imitations
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I have long since come to realise that helicopter VFR is safe. Helicopter IFR is safe. It's the "iffy" bit in between that catches people out.
I never tire of having to explain to my customer's PA that one just cannot safely do the same things after sunset, such as arbitrarily land at an unrecce'd, unlit remote site, such as a back garden or small paddock.
Actually, it grips me every time they ask, like twice this week, same PA, but I'm sure you get the drift...
I never tire of having to explain to my customer's PA that one just cannot safely do the same things after sunset, such as arbitrarily land at an unrecce'd, unlit remote site, such as a back garden or small paddock.
Actually, it grips me every time they ask, like twice this week, same PA, but I'm sure you get the drift...
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Great thread Special 25.
Coming from a co-jo only recently trained on night decks and sitting on the "tell me again why we are doing this" side of the fence - another question to throw into the mix:
Has anybody done (or even thought about) doing their next HUET or underwater escape session with a blindfold over their eyes?? Coz that's what you got at night right? upside down, pitch black. Just doesn't sound like a Good Idea
Coming from a co-jo only recently trained on night decks and sitting on the "tell me again why we are doing this" side of the fence - another question to throw into the mix:
Has anybody done (or even thought about) doing their next HUET or underwater escape session with a blindfold over their eyes?? Coz that's what you got at night right? upside down, pitch black. Just doesn't sound like a Good Idea
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U.S. Navy does it that way in the full dunker. A couple rides visually, then the lovely swimming goggles that are blacked out. Done it personally numerous times. It's really no worse... except you have to have your procedures down and know where things are and what they feel like, and you must retain your reference point... and it can play with your head if you've never done it.
Even if you hit the water (heaven forbid) in broad daylight, you still may not be able to see due to lots of reasons. It is best to assume that your vision will be unusable to aid in your escape.
You are quite right that it's a good idea to do it blind for practice.
Even if you hit the water (heaven forbid) in broad daylight, you still may not be able to see due to lots of reasons. It is best to assume that your vision will be unusable to aid in your escape.
You are quite right that it's a good idea to do it blind for practice.
Last edited by Um... lifting...; 19th Oct 2008 at 05:22.
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that sounds pretty intense but I guess that highlights a serious distinction between civvy air transport ops and the navy way - our training seems like a once a year 'tick the box' and cross off the checklist affair. I don't think 2 escapes a year in the pool in a well lit environment could be considered adequate preparation for an actual survivable night ditching & rollover.
i shudder to think what would happen in reality - speaking from just Persian Gulf experience i know that most of the rig workers i was on HUET with couldn't swim! The fear in the pool was tangible. Imagine the absolute terror and pandemonium in the back with 13 pax thrashing around in the dark clamoring for the exits.
As you say, a daytime ditching may not be much better but the perception must certainly be aweful at night for those passengers in the back who don't have the luxury, like us up front, of having the door right next to us
i shudder to think what would happen in reality - speaking from just Persian Gulf experience i know that most of the rig workers i was on HUET with couldn't swim! The fear in the pool was tangible. Imagine the absolute terror and pandemonium in the back with 13 pax thrashing around in the dark clamoring for the exits.
As you say, a daytime ditching may not be much better but the perception must certainly be aweful at night for those passengers in the back who don't have the luxury, like us up front, of having the door right next to us
Thread Starter
OK, so I know I sound like a broken record ..............
I started a thread in Nov 2005 about the statistical risks of flying offshore at night and the high number of accidents that seem to result. We then had Morcombe Bay a year later. Began this thread in 2008 and seemed to get a fair bit of agreement that operations offshore at night pose a high, perhaps even unacceptable risk.
I just wanted to update the table for accidents in UK North Sea aircraft over the last 20 years, while the subject is fresh in everyone's minds.
Daylight
Sikorsky S61 1990 Brent Spar Helideck - Collision and crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter AS332 (Super Puma) 1995 Near Brae Platform - Lightning Strike, Tail Rotor Loss, Ditched - Weather
Sikorsky S76A (Modified) 2002 Leman Field, UK - Main rotor failure and crash - Mechanical
Night
Eurocopter AS332 (Super Puma) 1992 Near Cormorant 'A', UK - Stall and crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter AS332L2 2006 Den helder Aircraft Ditched - Under Investigation
Eurocopter SA365N (Dauphin) 2006 Morecambe Bay, UK - Disorientation & Crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter EC225 2009 Etap Platform, UK - Aircraft Ditched on approach offshore - Human Factors
Together with this list, I would venture an opinion that 2 out of the 3 daylight accidents would have occurred day or night, and the 1995 Lightning Strike incident was achieved without any loss of life by the crew autorotating into the sea - A task that would unlikely be successful at night.
So this list shows that over half of North Sea accidents in the last 20 years have been at night, when night operations (in my log book) account for less than 8% of the flying.
I started a thread in Nov 2005 about the statistical risks of flying offshore at night and the high number of accidents that seem to result. We then had Morcombe Bay a year later. Began this thread in 2008 and seemed to get a fair bit of agreement that operations offshore at night pose a high, perhaps even unacceptable risk.
I just wanted to update the table for accidents in UK North Sea aircraft over the last 20 years, while the subject is fresh in everyone's minds.
Daylight
Sikorsky S61 1990 Brent Spar Helideck - Collision and crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter AS332 (Super Puma) 1995 Near Brae Platform - Lightning Strike, Tail Rotor Loss, Ditched - Weather
Sikorsky S76A (Modified) 2002 Leman Field, UK - Main rotor failure and crash - Mechanical
Night
Eurocopter AS332 (Super Puma) 1992 Near Cormorant 'A', UK - Stall and crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter AS332L2 2006 Den helder Aircraft Ditched - Under Investigation
Eurocopter SA365N (Dauphin) 2006 Morecambe Bay, UK - Disorientation & Crash - Human Factors
Eurocopter EC225 2009 Etap Platform, UK - Aircraft Ditched on approach offshore - Human Factors
Together with this list, I would venture an opinion that 2 out of the 3 daylight accidents would have occurred day or night, and the 1995 Lightning Strike incident was achieved without any loss of life by the crew autorotating into the sea - A task that would unlikely be successful at night.
So this list shows that over half of North Sea accidents in the last 20 years have been at night, when night operations (in my log book) account for less than 8% of the flying.
Last edited by Special 25; 28th Feb 2009 at 06:47.
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Hey Special 25...I am still with you as I was after Morcombe bay......Now this accident at night as well.....Thank god the sea wasn't rough as I think with the puma almost certainly turning over we would now be looking at 18 fatalities instead.....Just sheer luck it was a calm night....
Either ban night flying totally from the N.sea,(other operations round the world seem to manage quite well flying day only, it's just a case of here that we've always done it so it's a culture change) OR AT LEAST up the limits significantly for night ops, and adopt say way higher minima (as was suggested by DB on the Puma thread)....Either way, enough is enough, the caa need to get on board here with the operators and do something significant before we right the same bloody thing a year from now!!!!!!!!!!
Either ban night flying totally from the N.sea,(other operations round the world seem to manage quite well flying day only, it's just a case of here that we've always done it so it's a culture change) OR AT LEAST up the limits significantly for night ops, and adopt say way higher minima (as was suggested by DB on the Puma thread)....Either way, enough is enough, the caa need to get on board here with the operators and do something significant before we right the same bloody thing a year from now!!!!!!!!!!
