Lack of radar service Offshore/Multilateration
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Lack of radar service Offshore/Multilateration
For some time now we have been told that we will be getting Multilateration a system that enables aircraft positions to be identified. Currently in the northern North Sea we don’t have a radar service beyond 80miles.
My questions is how long do we put up with this dangerous practice when an adequate system is available but not installed?
Your thoughts please.
Any NATS input would be greatly received also.
My questions is how long do we put up with this dangerous practice when an adequate system is available but not installed?
Your thoughts please.
Any NATS input would be greatly received also.
Not sure that lack of multilat can be called dangerous - after all in the entire history of the North Sea there has never been a collision, but plenty of other ways to die in a helicopter. So if it is dangerous, (and danger vs safe is a sliding scale not an absolute) then there are far more dangerous issues that perhaps should receive your attention. I suspect you have an ulterior motive/hidden agenda!
I believe the problem with Multilat is not of NATS making but rather its very difficult to get beds and trips offshore for the workers who would fit the kit. You could argue that the Oil Companies should be prepared to sacrifice production time for this safety kit, but there is of course no legal requirement for them to support NATS, and bearing in mind my first para, there is no great safety case. With TCAS I and in the near future II making its way onto the N Sea, the case is further weakened.
Of course I would like to have Multilat, but in the great scheme of things its not top of the agenda.
HC
I believe the problem with Multilat is not of NATS making but rather its very difficult to get beds and trips offshore for the workers who would fit the kit. You could argue that the Oil Companies should be prepared to sacrifice production time for this safety kit, but there is of course no legal requirement for them to support NATS, and bearing in mind my first para, there is no great safety case. With TCAS I and in the near future II making its way onto the N Sea, the case is further weakened.
Of course I would like to have Multilat, but in the great scheme of things its not top of the agenda.
HC
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The problem is that we have no radar service and the only plan to resolve this is multilateration. I just want to improve safety offshore no other agenda other than that.
What I would like is more priority given to the introduction of a system that improves safety offshore. Sadly flying an old type that isn't going to be replaced any time soon means no TCAS for me.
What I would like is more priority given to the introduction of a system that improves safety offshore. Sadly flying an old type that isn't going to be replaced any time soon means no TCAS for me.
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You could just hang a Raytheon Cossor Condor Mk.2 on a couple of oil platforms.
There has been a SSR on Gullfaks for years, and Heidrun and Ekofisk are getting one. Pics from Heidrun.
There has been a SSR on Gullfaks for years, and Heidrun and Ekofisk are getting one. Pics from Heidrun.
stabout
Sorry, your post read a bit like you were not actually a pilot - had I checked your post history I would have realised that you are a pilot!
Don't dismiss the possibility of getting TCAS just because you fly an old type (for CHC?) - here in Bristow we have a strategy to retrofit TCAS II to all our fleets including the AS332L (well, maybe not the S61!). There might then be pressure for CHC to follow suit.
Anyway, the other point is that Multilat has its limitations like any other system - it only works on transponder returns so anyone not squawking is invisible. And have you considered what you would actually do if you are trundling along at 130kts and ATC advises you that there is a fast jet doing 450kts coming from you 6 o'clock same level.
I want multilat if only because it will cut down the neverending noise on 134.10 with almost every request for climb/descent generating calls from ATC to other helis requesting their position/level, and yes, that in itself improves safety a bit - less stress! And less stress when doing an ARA in the vicinity of other traffic etc.
Every little helps in the battle for safety but IMHO multilat is unlikely to make the difference between me reaching retirement age safely or not, so if its delayed by a year that is a pity but not a disaster.
HC
Sorry, your post read a bit like you were not actually a pilot - had I checked your post history I would have realised that you are a pilot!
Don't dismiss the possibility of getting TCAS just because you fly an old type (for CHC?) - here in Bristow we have a strategy to retrofit TCAS II to all our fleets including the AS332L (well, maybe not the S61!). There might then be pressure for CHC to follow suit.
Anyway, the other point is that Multilat has its limitations like any other system - it only works on transponder returns so anyone not squawking is invisible. And have you considered what you would actually do if you are trundling along at 130kts and ATC advises you that there is a fast jet doing 450kts coming from you 6 o'clock same level.
I want multilat if only because it will cut down the neverending noise on 134.10 with almost every request for climb/descent generating calls from ATC to other helis requesting their position/level, and yes, that in itself improves safety a bit - less stress! And less stress when doing an ARA in the vicinity of other traffic etc.
Every little helps in the battle for safety but IMHO multilat is unlikely to make the difference between me reaching retirement age safely or not, so if its delayed by a year that is a pity but not a disaster.
HC
HC, if by TCAS II you are talking about that analog VSI replacement with the big red "dive" arrow, then we have already trashed it on this forum as the height of idiocy.
I doubt any other operator will follow the Bristow path on that one, in fact I doubt if Bristow will follow it either. Have they fitted a second aircraft yet?
The CHC guys see TCAS targets on their map displays that also show rigs, shorelines and waypoints. They already have a far superior product to that wretched Bristow experiment. If fact it is not too different than full ADS-B, which should be the offshore industry's holy grail - not some intermediate step like Multi-Lat.
I doubt any other operator will follow the Bristow path on that one, in fact I doubt if Bristow will follow it either. Have they fitted a second aircraft yet?
The CHC guys see TCAS targets on their map displays that also show rigs, shorelines and waypoints. They already have a far superior product to that wretched Bristow experiment. If fact it is not too different than full ADS-B, which should be the offshore industry's holy grail - not some intermediate step like Multi-Lat.
HC,
No mid-airs on the North Sea yet!
There have been some very...very close calls.
Outbound from the Shetlands for the Ninian many years back....Steve Stevens and I in a 58T passed a BAH 61 in cloud going the other way. One of the other crew was wearing a dark blue float coat and the other just his white shirt. Captain was driving....FO was doing the nav board.
So much for Decca, Bar Alts, and VOR radials for separation.
State of the art kit is cheap compared to a mid-air!
Nothing less should be accepted!
No mid-airs on the North Sea yet!
There have been some very...very close calls.
Outbound from the Shetlands for the Ninian many years back....Steve Stevens and I in a 58T passed a BAH 61 in cloud going the other way. One of the other crew was wearing a dark blue float coat and the other just his white shirt. Captain was driving....FO was doing the nav board.
So much for Decca, Bar Alts, and VOR radials for separation.
State of the art kit is cheap compared to a mid-air!
Nothing less should be accepted!
Blimey, someone call a doctor - malabo is having a funny turn!
SAS - Near misses are scary, there have been more than that one, however you get a number of very near misses for every hit - no hits in all the history of the N Sea makes multilat, IMHO, certainly a nice-to-have but not a top priority. As I mentioned, multilat only reduces the probability of a collision, it does not eliminate it. Interesting that you say
So, things have improved since then, now we can afford trousers!
HC
SAS - Near misses are scary, there have been more than that one, however you get a number of very near misses for every hit - no hits in all the history of the N Sea makes multilat, IMHO, certainly a nice-to-have but not a top priority. As I mentioned, multilat only reduces the probability of a collision, it does not eliminate it. Interesting that you say
One of the other crew was wearing a dark blue float coat and the other just his white shirt
HC
To put my tuppence worth in, some oil companies did not want rebros antennas placing on there rigs to remove some of the black spots. They said that they did not have room for a filing cabinet box of electronics and an aerial !!
Having flown in Norwegian, Danish and UK airspace, I know the Northern North Sea is a VERY poor relative.
Having flown in Norwegian, Danish and UK airspace, I know the Northern North Sea is a VERY poor relative.
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I believe that we are very well looked after by ATC on both Radar and Information however anything that helps with cutting the amount of RT on information/offshore radar has to help. Getting an word in now on busy days ( nearly all the time) is getting worse.
And anything will be an improvement on the current situation...i hear the last plan was for implementation by December.......which December still remains unclear.
Any ATCO's got info/ opinion on this topic??
T4
And anything will be an improvement on the current situation...i hear the last plan was for implementation by December.......which December still remains unclear.
Any ATCO's got info/ opinion on this topic??
T4
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Hey Chaps....I control the most Northern north sea and the southern north sea....yes...the multilat problem is due to the lack of beds offshore....but one thing that really springs to my mind is that of the reaction us radar controllers get from the pilot.
Many times i pass traffic info only for the pilot to reply in such a tone that I have just awoken him from his slumber..."yes....we have it on tcas"....that doesnt help ME at all....you need to look out of the window to confirm!!
I had a very interesting scenario this morning....using RADAR....passed traffic info....no reply....tried again....no reply....the guy coming the other way tried....no reply....eventually went through the radio fail procedure only for the pilot to infrom me he could "read fives"....and that he was "very busy in the cockpit"......
So...ok....give us better radar....give us great comms....but unless the guy I want to speak to isn't too busy....we can't win!!!
Many times i pass traffic info only for the pilot to reply in such a tone that I have just awoken him from his slumber..."yes....we have it on tcas"....that doesnt help ME at all....you need to look out of the window to confirm!!
I had a very interesting scenario this morning....using RADAR....passed traffic info....no reply....tried again....no reply....the guy coming the other way tried....no reply....eventually went through the radio fail procedure only for the pilot to infrom me he could "read fives"....and that he was "very busy in the cockpit"......
So...ok....give us better radar....give us great comms....but unless the guy I want to speak to isn't too busy....we can't win!!!
Let me guess, a southern north sea operator, CHC or BHL? My guess BHL. Then you probably get idiots who have stuck mic and don't even realise it. That's probably worse. Oh, and we do get 'busy in the cockpit'. Don't you know how many bacon butties we have to stuff down our throats betwen decks. Jeez, some people! 
PS, wot's TCAS???
PS, wot's TCAS???
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Some interesting points coming out here, how do we as a body make the oil companies get a move on with installing this kit?
Why do we in the UK put up with a lack of technology compared to the likes of Norway.
Is it not about time that we say no to going past a point of no radar service i.e. 80 miles in IMC in an airspace where traffic density is on the up?
VMC a FIS will do but IMC???
Why do we in the UK put up with a lack of technology compared to the likes of Norway.
Is it not about time that we say no to going past a point of no radar service i.e. 80 miles in IMC in an airspace where traffic density is on the up?
VMC a FIS will do but IMC???
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ATCO,
you got any info on when they hope to introduce multi lat? If it is goint to happen? and do you think it will be a huge improvement or is there something available that would be better?
I feel a bun fight coming on about RT procedures on the North sea. It is getting busy, we are all guilty of missing calls, stepping on each other and not following RT protocol at some stage in our career, but lets see if we can
put that to one side and try to push for the implementation of somthing that will improve our safety in an ever conjested environment...call it self preservation!!
T4
you got any info on when they hope to introduce multi lat? If it is goint to happen? and do you think it will be a huge improvement or is there something available that would be better?
I feel a bun fight coming on about RT procedures on the North sea. It is getting busy, we are all guilty of missing calls, stepping on each other and not following RT protocol at some stage in our career, but lets see if we can
put that to one side and try to push for the implementation of somthing that will improve our safety in an ever conjested environment...call it self preservation!!
T4
RT congestion on 135.175 is certainly a big issue, as I mentioned before, largely due to the procedural nature of the service. As well as multilat, there is also a proposal to split 135.175 into 2 frequencies, thus presumably halving the RT traffic on each frequency. I think that is suffering from the same problem - difficulty in installing the extra rebros equipment offshore due to lack of availability of offshore time/beds etc.
In the mean time I am probably as guilty as the next man of turning the radios down to barely audible simply because I cannot stand the constant howls of crossed transmissions etc
ATCO, it must be annoying when crews don't respond to your first call, but please bear in mind that, unlike you guys who get regular breaks from the audio mayhem, the pilots who are failing to respond to you might have been constantly at it for 6 or 7 hours without a break from the noise. It gets wearing!
Splitting rebros, and installing multilat will improve our lot significantly, not so much for preventing a mid-air, but for cutting down the stress of the constant chat that we have to listen to all the time (for fear of encountering wrath following a missed call!)
HC
In the mean time I am probably as guilty as the next man of turning the radios down to barely audible simply because I cannot stand the constant howls of crossed transmissions etc
ATCO, it must be annoying when crews don't respond to your first call, but please bear in mind that, unlike you guys who get regular breaks from the audio mayhem, the pilots who are failing to respond to you might have been constantly at it for 6 or 7 hours without a break from the noise. It gets wearing!
Splitting rebros, and installing multilat will improve our lot significantly, not so much for preventing a mid-air, but for cutting down the stress of the constant chat that we have to listen to all the time (for fear of encountering wrath following a missed call!)
HC
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HELIMUT....whye aye thats funny!!!! Don't know how you all fit into the cockpit after sooo many bacon butties....maybe the emergency exit stickers on the windows with a cross thru the "larger person" is.....
.....as for TCAS.....blimey...from what I saw in that old S76...you'd have no room to sit if they installed that on one!!! I'll stick to dry land if thats ok!!!
My previous comment about needing pilots to listen out was justified...we can improve the (sorry...eventually improve) radar coverage....but what use is it if the cockpit is too busy to listen to the controller....and i know its not all of you pilots....I could feel the tension today when the guy said he was "BUSY"....I just had to say that I too was busy but found time to talk to pilots...and not one person brought me a bacon buttie
(thanks guys for making my job enjoyable though....I'm sure we ALL enjoy the odd bit of banter.....if any BHL guys want to get me started on callsigns now.....
)
.....as for TCAS.....blimey...from what I saw in that old S76...you'd have no room to sit if they installed that on one!!! I'll stick to dry land if thats ok!!!My previous comment about needing pilots to listen out was justified...we can improve the (sorry...eventually improve) radar coverage....but what use is it if the cockpit is too busy to listen to the controller....and i know its not all of you pilots....I could feel the tension today when the guy said he was "BUSY"....I just had to say that I too was busy but found time to talk to pilots...and not one person brought me a bacon buttie
(thanks guys for making my job enjoyable though....I'm sure we ALL enjoy the odd bit of banter.....if any BHL guys want to get me started on callsigns now.....
)
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Helicomp....fair comment...totally understand...but the route in question today had just departed the airfield in the UK....and just got feet wet...and i knew it was the first sector of the frame for the day.....and it only does 4 short trips a day....
atco, yes of course pilots need to listen but my point is that once rt traffic drops to the sort of level commensurate with a radar service (ie only calls are those that are necessary to advise of conflicting traffic) I think you will find that attentiveness of crews improves.
I know you are now going to tell me that the guy you referred to was on radar! Maybe he was busy for some reason (though its hard to know what unless there was some sort of emergency) but more likely he "switched off" for a while due to heated debate in the cockpit (about terms & conditions, politics, football or whatever, probably not about flying!) and was blustering to cover it.
Even, maybe he was line training and lost in a briefing!
Yes there are good and bad pilots, there are good pilots having bad days etc, but so are there good and bad ATCOs - and we are all human!
And can I just mention it wasn't me guv as I am off this week!
HC
I know you are now going to tell me that the guy you referred to was on radar! Maybe he was busy for some reason (though its hard to know what unless there was some sort of emergency) but more likely he "switched off" for a while due to heated debate in the cockpit (about terms & conditions, politics, football or whatever, probably not about flying!) and was blustering to cover it.
Even, maybe he was line training and lost in a briefing!
Yes there are good and bad pilots, there are good pilots having bad days etc, but so are there good and bad ATCOs - and we are all human!
And can I just mention it wasn't me guv as I am off this week!
HC