CNN report- Nine people are presumed dead, helicopter crash California.
Sad to read a friend's last words......"Fly Darling!"
I miss his great sense of humour and smile!
I miss his great sense of humour and smile!
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looking for input
Trying to make sense of this tragedy... Hoping to learn from others mistakes/misfurtunes to hopefully prevent becoming a statistic myself... Apologies in advance for the long thread but this issue has me a bit worked up...
List of NTSB documents:
CD List Of Contents
First off, it's maddening and unacceptable that the maintenance records are so poor that no one can say for sure what the aircraft actually weighed... two weight and balance forms dated 04 Jan 08 that are incomplete and don't match!? Logbook entries for hoist and fire king water tank installation stating that W&B was updated with no subsequent weight and balance changes made... It seems plausible that the aircraft was 1000lb heavier than the records furnished to the Pilot for performance calcs... that is absolutely unacceptable... criminal in my mind.
FCU (fuel control unit) chain of control wasn't handled very well it seems... If that was a possible culprit I'd sure bloody like to know about it, being I have two of those overhead keeping me aloft. I'm having a bit of a problem adopting the fcu failure scenario because of the lack of cockpit indicators. The audio analysis indicates the engines went to topping on all heavy passenger carrying fllghts (as the flat 101 on the Ng shows). This makes me believe that the aircraft was at its performance limit (which supports the "heavier than RFM indicated" theory). If the fcu was failing as Carson suggests (stator vane failing to open which allows full ng without achieving rated power output) I would assume to see unusually high T5 (tot) temperatures... a similiar situation to having an ng input sense failure. The copilot was doing a good job of monitoring and calling out flight parameters (as the cvr transcripts show) so I would expect to hear a call out for high temps if that was the case...
List of NTSB documents:
CD List Of Contents
First off, it's maddening and unacceptable that the maintenance records are so poor that no one can say for sure what the aircraft actually weighed... two weight and balance forms dated 04 Jan 08 that are incomplete and don't match!? Logbook entries for hoist and fire king water tank installation stating that W&B was updated with no subsequent weight and balance changes made... It seems plausible that the aircraft was 1000lb heavier than the records furnished to the Pilot for performance calcs... that is absolutely unacceptable... criminal in my mind.
FCU (fuel control unit) chain of control wasn't handled very well it seems... If that was a possible culprit I'd sure bloody like to know about it, being I have two of those overhead keeping me aloft. I'm having a bit of a problem adopting the fcu failure scenario because of the lack of cockpit indicators. The audio analysis indicates the engines went to topping on all heavy passenger carrying fllghts (as the flat 101 on the Ng shows). This makes me believe that the aircraft was at its performance limit (which supports the "heavier than RFM indicated" theory). If the fcu was failing as Carson suggests (stator vane failing to open which allows full ng without achieving rated power output) I would assume to see unusually high T5 (tot) temperatures... a similiar situation to having an ng input sense failure. The copilot was doing a good job of monitoring and calling out flight parameters (as the cvr transcripts show) so I would expect to hear a call out for high temps if that was the case...
NTSB Site
NTSB TO MEET ON 2008 U.S. FOREST SERVICE CONTRACT FIREFIGHTING HELICOPTER CRASH IN WEAVERVILLE, CALIFORNIA
The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a public Board meeting on Tuesday, December 7, at 9:30 a.m., in its Board Room and Conference Center, 429 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C.
There is one item on the agenda. The Board will consider a final report on the following accident:
On August 5, 2008, a Sikorsky S-61N helicopter (N612AZ), impacted trees and terrain during the initial climb after takeoff, located at an elevation of about 6,000 feet in mountainous terrain near Weaverville, California. Impact forces and a post-crash fire destroyed the helicopter, which was being operated by the U.S. Forest Service as a public flight to transport firefighters and was contracted with Carson Helicopters, Inc. As a result of this accident, nine occupants were fatally injured and four were seriously injured.
A live and archived webcast of the proceedings will be available on the Board's website at National Transportation Safety Board. Technical support details are available under "Board Meetings." To report any problems, please call 703-993-3100 and ask for Webcast Technical Support.
A summary of the Board's final report, which will include findings, probable cause and safety recommendations, will appear on the website shortly after the conclusion of the meeting. The entire report will appear on the website several weeks later.
NEW TEMPORARY DIRECTIONS (due to ongoing construction) to the NTSB Board Room: Front door located on Lower 10th Street, directly below L'Enfant Plaza. From Metro, exit L'Enfant Plaza station at 7th and D Streets escalator, turn left, cross 7th Street, walk a half block, take stairs on left and walk into the entrance marked La Promenade, walk through shopping mall, turn right at florist shop, see the CVS store (on the left) and take escalator (on the right) down one level. The Board room will be to your left.
NTSB TO MEET ON 2008 U.S. FOREST SERVICE CONTRACT FIREFIGHTING HELICOPTER CRASH IN WEAVERVILLE, CALIFORNIA
The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a public Board meeting on Tuesday, December 7, at 9:30 a.m., in its Board Room and Conference Center, 429 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C.
There is one item on the agenda. The Board will consider a final report on the following accident:
On August 5, 2008, a Sikorsky S-61N helicopter (N612AZ), impacted trees and terrain during the initial climb after takeoff, located at an elevation of about 6,000 feet in mountainous terrain near Weaverville, California. Impact forces and a post-crash fire destroyed the helicopter, which was being operated by the U.S. Forest Service as a public flight to transport firefighters and was contracted with Carson Helicopters, Inc. As a result of this accident, nine occupants were fatally injured and four were seriously injured.
A live and archived webcast of the proceedings will be available on the Board's website at National Transportation Safety Board. Technical support details are available under "Board Meetings." To report any problems, please call 703-993-3100 and ask for Webcast Technical Support.
A summary of the Board's final report, which will include findings, probable cause and safety recommendations, will appear on the website shortly after the conclusion of the meeting. The entire report will appear on the website several weeks later.
NEW TEMPORARY DIRECTIONS (due to ongoing construction) to the NTSB Board Room: Front door located on Lower 10th Street, directly below L'Enfant Plaza. From Metro, exit L'Enfant Plaza station at 7th and D Streets escalator, turn left, cross 7th Street, walk a half block, take stairs on left and walk into the entrance marked La Promenade, walk through shopping mall, turn right at florist shop, see the CVS store (on the left) and take escalator (on the right) down one level. The Board room will be to your left.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 2nd Dec 2010 at 18:35. Reason: Duplicate posts
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Carson Helicopters contests NTSB findings for Iron 44 crash.
Frank Carson in a letter to the NTSB stated that his company "believed that important evidence had been mishandled and was then ignored by the NTSB investigators in order to close the investigation as quickly as possible."
"The NTSB ignored the experienced copilot's direct testimony that he saw signs of power loss in the #2 engine immediately prior to the crash and they ignored his direct reading of the actual air temperature at the scene in favor of manufactured data that fit their preconceived narrative.
"The NTSB lost care and custody of fuel control unit (FCU) parts early in this investigation and from that point forward did not pursue evidence chains leading to the fuel control units."
President Carson went on to say: "On December 7, 2010 when the NTSB held a news conference stating that the main cause of the accident was Carson's alleged use of false charts and weights, I knew that my faith in a fair and impartial investigation had been ill-founded."
"Carson strongly believes that the accident was caused by the loss of power to the #2 engine due to contamination in the fuel control, which the NTSB chose to ignore even after reviewing indisputable evidence brought to its attention. The NTSB's lack of interest in looking beyond its initial conclusion is fortified by its failure to interview the surviving copilot who clearly remembers that the #2 engine lost power before the crash."
Carson Helicopters contests NTSB findings for Iron 44 crash | KDRV
Frank Carson in a letter to the NTSB stated that his company "believed that important evidence had been mishandled and was then ignored by the NTSB investigators in order to close the investigation as quickly as possible."
"The NTSB ignored the experienced copilot's direct testimony that he saw signs of power loss in the #2 engine immediately prior to the crash and they ignored his direct reading of the actual air temperature at the scene in favor of manufactured data that fit their preconceived narrative.
"The NTSB lost care and custody of fuel control unit (FCU) parts early in this investigation and from that point forward did not pursue evidence chains leading to the fuel control units."
President Carson went on to say: "On December 7, 2010 when the NTSB held a news conference stating that the main cause of the accident was Carson's alleged use of false charts and weights, I knew that my faith in a fair and impartial investigation had been ill-founded."
"Carson strongly believes that the accident was caused by the loss of power to the #2 engine due to contamination in the fuel control, which the NTSB chose to ignore even after reviewing indisputable evidence brought to its attention. The NTSB's lack of interest in looking beyond its initial conclusion is fortified by its failure to interview the surviving copilot who clearly remembers that the #2 engine lost power before the crash."
Carson Helicopters contests NTSB findings for Iron 44 crash | KDRV
Justice being served
RIP my friends... You are not forgotten.
RIP my friends... You are not forgotten.
MEDFORD, Ore. – A former executive was sentenced Tuesday to nearly 13 years in prison after admitting he provided false performance specifications to win a firefighting contract for a helicopter that crashed on a 2008 forest fire in California, killing seven firefighters and two pilots.
The deaths rank as the worst toll of working firefighters in a helicopter crash in U.S. history.
In passing sentence in U.S. District Court, Judge Ann Aiken scolded former Carson Helicopters vice president Steven Metheny for breaking every oath he had ever taken, from his time as an Eagle Scout growing up in Connecticut, to being a helicopter pilot for the National Guard in Connecticut and Oregon.
"In the end, you betrayed all your friends and family and the oaths you have taken," she told Metheny, 45. "If you had been found out and no one died, I would impose the same sentence."
Metheny had pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud, as well as making false statements. He was sentenced to 12 years and seven months in federal prison. He reports in two months.
Though not directly charged with the deaths, Aiken said Metheny had put in motion a chain of events leading to the crash by giving the U.S Forest Service and pilots flying the Sikorsky S-61 helicopter false weight and balance charts and performance standards used to calculate how many passengers and cargo they could carry in different conditions.
The helicopter crashed while taking off with members of a Grayback Forestry crew from Merlin, Oregon, who were being pulled off the line on the Iron 44 fire outside Weaverville, California, in anticipation of approaching thunderstorms. The helicopter crashed while taking off from a clearing cut in heavy timber near the top of a mountain. Four firefighters survived.
When the deadline came for submitting weight and balance charts on the crash helicopter for the firefighting contract, the aircraft was in pieces at Carson's facility in Perkasie, Pennsylvania, Aiken said. So Metheny submitted estimates based on a formula put together by Carson chief mechanic Levi Phillips. Metheny maintained the fraud by putting made-up performance charts in the helicopter flight manual used by pilots.
Aiken sentenced Phillips to two years and one month in prison for his role in the plot.
The plot unraveled when investigators realized that the weights offered by Metheny were in tenths of a pound, and the Carson scale in Pennsylvania measured in whole pounds, prosecutor Byron Chatfield said. National Transportation Safety Board investigators also realized that the performance charts for the helicopter did not match the performance charts from the factory.
By the time it was flying over the Iron 44 fire, the helicopter was 1,400 pounds heavier than the charts supplied to the U.S. Forest Service and to pilots calculating how much of a payload the helicopter could handle, making it harder to take off in extreme conditions, the prosecution argued.
Defense lawyer Steven Myers argued that the helicopter pilot could have avoided the crash by doing a standard maneuver on takeoff, where the pilot hovers and checks his gauges.
Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times. "Whether the gauges were right or not, the pilot didn't have the right information," Aiken told Metheny.
Families of the dead firefighters had poured out their grief and anger during the hearing on Monday. But by the time the prison sentences were issued Tuesday, many said they were satisfied with the outcome.
"I wish I could say I forgive Metheny," said Juanita Gomez, who wore a photo around her neck of her son, Edrik, who was 19 and fighting fires to pay for college when he was killed. Four months after his death, Edrik's father died, unable to live with the loss, she had told the court.
"I am in the process of starting to do that, which is a big process for me," she said. "I do feel like a load has been lifted. We needed this ending."
Paul Steele, whose son, David, was killed, said the judge told Metheny what all of the grieving family members had wanted to tell him: You have inflicted a huge loss on a lot of people, and you need to make amends.
"He said he was sorry for our loss. But I don't think he ever said he was sorry for what he did," Steel said. "I think there is a distinction there."
Donna Rich, who lost her 29-year-old son, Bryan, said she felt Metheny should have gotten a longer sentence "for the lives he destroyed. He just walks around like he has nothing to worry about, like he is paying a traffic ticket."
Also killed in the crash were check pilot Jim Ramage, 63, of Redding, California; command pilot Roark Schwanenberg, 54, of Lostine, Oregon; and firefighters Shawn Blazer, 19, of Ashland; Scott Charlson, 25, of Phoenix, Oregon; Matthew Hammer, 23, of Grants Pass; and Steven Caleb Renno, 21, of Cave Junction.
The deaths rank as the worst toll of working firefighters in a helicopter crash in U.S. history.
In passing sentence in U.S. District Court, Judge Ann Aiken scolded former Carson Helicopters vice president Steven Metheny for breaking every oath he had ever taken, from his time as an Eagle Scout growing up in Connecticut, to being a helicopter pilot for the National Guard in Connecticut and Oregon.
"In the end, you betrayed all your friends and family and the oaths you have taken," she told Metheny, 45. "If you had been found out and no one died, I would impose the same sentence."
Metheny had pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud, as well as making false statements. He was sentenced to 12 years and seven months in federal prison. He reports in two months.
Though not directly charged with the deaths, Aiken said Metheny had put in motion a chain of events leading to the crash by giving the U.S Forest Service and pilots flying the Sikorsky S-61 helicopter false weight and balance charts and performance standards used to calculate how many passengers and cargo they could carry in different conditions.
The helicopter crashed while taking off with members of a Grayback Forestry crew from Merlin, Oregon, who were being pulled off the line on the Iron 44 fire outside Weaverville, California, in anticipation of approaching thunderstorms. The helicopter crashed while taking off from a clearing cut in heavy timber near the top of a mountain. Four firefighters survived.
When the deadline came for submitting weight and balance charts on the crash helicopter for the firefighting contract, the aircraft was in pieces at Carson's facility in Perkasie, Pennsylvania, Aiken said. So Metheny submitted estimates based on a formula put together by Carson chief mechanic Levi Phillips. Metheny maintained the fraud by putting made-up performance charts in the helicopter flight manual used by pilots.
Aiken sentenced Phillips to two years and one month in prison for his role in the plot.
The plot unraveled when investigators realized that the weights offered by Metheny were in tenths of a pound, and the Carson scale in Pennsylvania measured in whole pounds, prosecutor Byron Chatfield said. National Transportation Safety Board investigators also realized that the performance charts for the helicopter did not match the performance charts from the factory.
By the time it was flying over the Iron 44 fire, the helicopter was 1,400 pounds heavier than the charts supplied to the U.S. Forest Service and to pilots calculating how much of a payload the helicopter could handle, making it harder to take off in extreme conditions, the prosecution argued.
Defense lawyer Steven Myers argued that the helicopter pilot could have avoided the crash by doing a standard maneuver on takeoff, where the pilot hovers and checks his gauges.
Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times. "Whether the gauges were right or not, the pilot didn't have the right information," Aiken told Metheny.
Families of the dead firefighters had poured out their grief and anger during the hearing on Monday. But by the time the prison sentences were issued Tuesday, many said they were satisfied with the outcome.
"I wish I could say I forgive Metheny," said Juanita Gomez, who wore a photo around her neck of her son, Edrik, who was 19 and fighting fires to pay for college when he was killed. Four months after his death, Edrik's father died, unable to live with the loss, she had told the court.
"I am in the process of starting to do that, which is a big process for me," she said. "I do feel like a load has been lifted. We needed this ending."
Paul Steele, whose son, David, was killed, said the judge told Metheny what all of the grieving family members had wanted to tell him: You have inflicted a huge loss on a lot of people, and you need to make amends.
"He said he was sorry for our loss. But I don't think he ever said he was sorry for what he did," Steel said. "I think there is a distinction there."
Donna Rich, who lost her 29-year-old son, Bryan, said she felt Metheny should have gotten a longer sentence "for the lives he destroyed. He just walks around like he has nothing to worry about, like he is paying a traffic ticket."
Also killed in the crash were check pilot Jim Ramage, 63, of Redding, California; command pilot Roark Schwanenberg, 54, of Lostine, Oregon; and firefighters Shawn Blazer, 19, of Ashland; Scott Charlson, 25, of Phoenix, Oregon; Matthew Hammer, 23, of Grants Pass; and Steven Caleb Renno, 21, of Cave Junction.
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Obviously this was a terrible accident but one of the advantages a helicopter has over a fixed wing aircraft is that during take off to the hover, the pilot can check his power available & c of g which the fixed wing pilot can't. Therefore that pilot must do his calculations before attempting take off. I'm sure there isn't a helicopter pilot anywhere that hasn't taken off over weight or on c of g limits without having a good idea that was the case.
During 45 years of helicopter operations I have often had to off load freight or people as I was clearly over weight. This can happen when you are doing running turn rounds & someone else is doing the manifest. The worst case I had was when I was given a manifest for a 212 & was 2000 pounds over weight! The controller had put the 12 passengers & freight onto one manifest, not two!
During 45 years of helicopter operations I have often had to off load freight or people as I was clearly over weight. This can happen when you are doing running turn rounds & someone else is doing the manifest. The worst case I had was when I was given a manifest for a 212 & was 2000 pounds over weight! The controller had put the 12 passengers & freight onto one manifest, not two!
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The judge's father crashed 13 times?? And that is relevant how?
Wow. Just wow.
Defense lawyer Steven Myers argued that the helicopter pilot could have avoided the crash by doing a standard maneuver on takeoff, where the pilot hovers and checks his gauges.
Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times.
Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times.
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True story:
A position opened on the general district court bench and our local BAR was pushing for a particular attorney to get the judgeship but said lawyer wasn't known to be particularly bright. I asked a local attorney why they wanted this guy on the bench and I'll never forget his reply: "We don't want anybody too smart up there."
A position opened on the general district court bench and our local BAR was pushing for a particular attorney to get the judgeship but said lawyer wasn't known to be particularly bright. I asked a local attorney why they wanted this guy on the bench and I'll never forget his reply: "We don't want anybody too smart up there."
