Interesting facts - PSNI Helicopter
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Interesting facts??
Now I don't know how many pilots the PSNI employ but lets say five including a floater, and £265,000 = £53,000 a year each. Two constables at £110,000. £55,000 a year each. Wish I earned within £15,000 of that when I was an observer in one of if the busiest air support units in the UK. Where do you get your interesting facts from Skyhigh?
Hovering AND talking
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The costs of employing someone are more than just their salary; need to include Employer's National Insurance at 12.8%, employer's pension contribution (variable) at, say 6% plus the costs of any other benefits agreed in a contract (this could include eye tests, staff welfare, all sorts).
This means that, five pilots would be earning around £44k per annum each; that's about right. The observer's amount of £110,000 is bizarre as each aircraft uses two observers and therefore I would think there should be around ten on the books!
Very few of these figures ring true and, although I don't doubt the OP had used his rights under The Freedom of Information Act (again!), either the information provided is incorrect, the OP asked the wrong question or has misinterpreted the answers.
Cheers
Whirls
This means that, five pilots would be earning around £44k per annum each; that's about right. The observer's amount of £110,000 is bizarre as each aircraft uses two observers and therefore I would think there should be around ten on the books!
Very few of these figures ring true and, although I don't doubt the OP had used his rights under The Freedom of Information Act (again!), either the information provided is incorrect, the OP asked the wrong question or has misinterpreted the answers.
Cheers
Whirls
OK skyhigh - tell us how that one helicopter can satisfy the demands of being equipped for police work and air ambulance at the same time. I'm dying for you to show your complete ignorance.
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Thanks Panther - see it can be done !!
I've carried quite a few casualties in police helicopters myself, in the days before an air ambulance was available in our area of responsibility. One of the more seriously injured ones didn't survive. Another time I very reluctantly had to decline to carry another RTA victim because I was very concerned that he would not survive if we flew him away from the treatment he was receiving. The doctor with him told me he needed to physically work alongside the patient and the aircraft simply couldn't accommodate that. They sent him in the ambulance on scene and thankfully he survived.
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Now I don't know how many pilots the PSNI employ but lets say five including
although the PSNI haven't been very helpful giving facts out !! As for the number of pilots they're are refusing to give numbers
If members are saying the PSNI helicopter can't perform both rolls because of its size ( which i doubt ) trade it in for a bigger one !!
As it stands we're paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC for 21hrs per day 365 days of the year
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Well here we go again....
The PSNI helicopter must have the highest utilisation rate of any in the UK with those hours. Now, I suggest you use your well exercised skills of FOI requests to find out the annual hours for the air ambulance cabs. You might be surprised.
Perhaps your knowledge and perception could help you campaign for a full time dedicated air ambulance for the province instead of a committee designed camel which wouldn't help either organisation. One which flies for 24 hours a day, with huge fuel tanks, small land anywhere size, all weather day/night/fog capability, flown and crewed by robots who never sleep, eat or need an outside life, never needs maintenance, cheap to buy and run, and while we're at it could you arrange for all accidents to happen one after the other and nicely spaced so there is no idle time or transit distances to mess up the statistics.
The PSNI helicopter must have the highest utilisation rate of any in the UK with those hours. Now, I suggest you use your well exercised skills of FOI requests to find out the annual hours for the air ambulance cabs. You might be surprised.
Perhaps your knowledge and perception could help you campaign for a full time dedicated air ambulance for the province instead of a committee designed camel which wouldn't help either organisation. One which flies for 24 hours a day, with huge fuel tanks, small land anywhere size, all weather day/night/fog capability, flown and crewed by robots who never sleep, eat or need an outside life, never needs maintenance, cheap to buy and run, and while we're at it could you arrange for all accidents to happen one after the other and nicely spaced so there is no idle time or transit distances to mess up the statistics.
Skyhigh - maybe you would just like to turn back the clock and reform 72 Sqn at Aldergrove - we maintained a 24 hour, SAR capable crew on a hoist equipped Wessex which could even have done the Strangford job without needing the lifeboat - think of the savings
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Perhaps the counter to this is that Skyhigh now has the freedom to avail of the FOI act of the UK?
would that be slow and barrel then? 
both rolls
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CR, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss joint Police/AA units. Those that are joint units are as effective, given that they're not the busiest of and this is the main reason why joint units, in some cases work. I'm not for a moment advocating that the PSNI aircraft should also be an air ambulance too but that you should cut your cloth accordingly, IMHO.
Last edited by MINself; 13th Jul 2008 at 12:16.
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As it stands we're paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC for 21hrs per day 365 days of the year
Your only posts on pprune are to threads you've started, all about aviation in Northern Ireland and all with an emotive bias; you don't seem to like Belfast City Airport much either!
Your figures are inaccurate but, let's say the PSNI ASU costs £2 per person per annum in NI; is that such a vast amount? Many people contribute more a month to AA charities and more of your taxes could be spent on completely worthless schemes.
So, if you have a beef about how your taxes are spent, then you should embark on the democratic process, lobby your local councillor, your MP, maybe stand for office yourself.
Coming to a website where the very people who set up ASUs and fly for the police and AA organisations and asking questions is laudable. However, you should then accept the answers to those questions since they were pretty much unanimous. You have not told us your interest in this matter (and I ain't buying innocent tax-payer) and neither have you given us technical and logistical reasons why you think a joint Police/AA WOULD work in NI. Get a bigger helicopter?
How about a PSNI ASU/NI AA chinook? Please could you at least respect and understand the viewpoints on this forum by taking the time to understand a little about helicopter operations. Thank you.Cheers
Whirls
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reform 72 Sqn at Aldergrove
Your figures are inaccurate
PS - i don't need to run for any offical office - i'm doing ok on my own
Skyhigh-Ulster,
Although I often look in on Pprune, I have until now never felt the need to put my 2 pence in. I am a Pilot with an ASU and when I first started my wife much like you was unable to understand how a 10 hour shift could be physically tiring while only flying for 3 hours or so.
The duty will start at 8am with a quick change in to flight gear a check of any notes left by the last pilot, then into the hangar to carry out the Check ‘A’ of the aircraft. This is followed by checking for contamination of the fuel both onboard the aircraft and in the bowser. Once complete the paper work in the Tech Log is filled out. Now it’s time to move onto a self brief of the weather and Notams. At the same time the Police Observers are carrying out self briefings on Logs since they were last on duty and looking into any pre-planned jobs that have come in. This is then followed by a full crew brief, me doing the aviation side of things and one of the Observers doing a tasking brief. By now you are an hour into the shift and you will note not a minute of flying.
Now is the time to get in a brew and possible a light bite to eat. We are now coiled springs waiting for the first calls of the day. I’ll give you an example day. On this day the first task came in around 10am when we went out to take photographs of a fatal accident. (These are carried out once the rescue services have departed and are to show an aerial view of the roads to help further investigations) The task lasted 30 minutes and on our return I topped up the aircraft before filling out the paperwork. I then resumed my coiled spring position. The Observers now had to edit and print off the photos which on a simple job like this is about 30-45 minutes of work. (0n some jobs it can run into hours in the edit room.)
It’s now around 11am and I have sneaked off for a quick visit to the loo for a number 2, however, not quick enough and a call comes in for a pursuit in progress. No need for more details but as quick as possible I’m out at the aircraft carrying out a fast start and when calling for clearance to lift, the Observers get a call to say the vehicle has been lost and to stand down. On the return to the office I resume the position while one of the Observers opens a log for the detail. Every job that comes through to the unit has to be logged. Notice, another 15-20 minutes not showing any flying time.
Over the next couple of hours a number of requests come in for jobs such as missing persons, persons made off from burglary etc. On each occasion the Observers have to vet the calls to ensure that enough has been done on the ground to ensure that aircraft hours are not wasted. A log is established every time.
I’ll not go on as it is obvious that although only 30 minutes flying has taken place in the first 4 hours very little time has been spent idle. The point is.......you can not look at the flying time as a comparison of total working time. Just like a lorry driver who may drive 3 hours a day yet spend hours loading and unloading.
One final point for you, Alpha 5 is a charity expecting to start a dedicated Air Ambulance service in a year’s time. Starting with an aircraft based Enniskillen way, followed by a further aircraft possible in the Newtownards area.
Ireland Air Ambulance | Home
WE
Although I often look in on Pprune, I have until now never felt the need to put my 2 pence in. I am a Pilot with an ASU and when I first started my wife much like you was unable to understand how a 10 hour shift could be physically tiring while only flying for 3 hours or so.
The duty will start at 8am with a quick change in to flight gear a check of any notes left by the last pilot, then into the hangar to carry out the Check ‘A’ of the aircraft. This is followed by checking for contamination of the fuel both onboard the aircraft and in the bowser. Once complete the paper work in the Tech Log is filled out. Now it’s time to move onto a self brief of the weather and Notams. At the same time the Police Observers are carrying out self briefings on Logs since they were last on duty and looking into any pre-planned jobs that have come in. This is then followed by a full crew brief, me doing the aviation side of things and one of the Observers doing a tasking brief. By now you are an hour into the shift and you will note not a minute of flying.
Now is the time to get in a brew and possible a light bite to eat. We are now coiled springs waiting for the first calls of the day. I’ll give you an example day. On this day the first task came in around 10am when we went out to take photographs of a fatal accident. (These are carried out once the rescue services have departed and are to show an aerial view of the roads to help further investigations) The task lasted 30 minutes and on our return I topped up the aircraft before filling out the paperwork. I then resumed my coiled spring position. The Observers now had to edit and print off the photos which on a simple job like this is about 30-45 minutes of work. (0n some jobs it can run into hours in the edit room.)
It’s now around 11am and I have sneaked off for a quick visit to the loo for a number 2, however, not quick enough and a call comes in for a pursuit in progress. No need for more details but as quick as possible I’m out at the aircraft carrying out a fast start and when calling for clearance to lift, the Observers get a call to say the vehicle has been lost and to stand down. On the return to the office I resume the position while one of the Observers opens a log for the detail. Every job that comes through to the unit has to be logged. Notice, another 15-20 minutes not showing any flying time.
Over the next couple of hours a number of requests come in for jobs such as missing persons, persons made off from burglary etc. On each occasion the Observers have to vet the calls to ensure that enough has been done on the ground to ensure that aircraft hours are not wasted. A log is established every time.
I’ll not go on as it is obvious that although only 30 minutes flying has taken place in the first 4 hours very little time has been spent idle. The point is.......you can not look at the flying time as a comparison of total working time. Just like a lorry driver who may drive 3 hours a day yet spend hours loading and unloading.
One final point for you, Alpha 5 is a charity expecting to start a dedicated Air Ambulance service in a year’s time. Starting with an aircraft based Enniskillen way, followed by a further aircraft possible in the Newtownards area.
Ireland Air Ambulance | Home
WE
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hmmm
lies, damn lies, and stuff from the FOIA..!
They are always open to (mis)-interpretation.
Assuming an "average" is alway a dangerous activity.
how long are the sorties
do they operate 24/7
how many hours lost for weather
how many weeks lost for annual
how many hours lost for engineering
how many hours used for training
none of these things have been factored into your "average"
1324 flying hours.. is that one a/c or two..?
if its one a/c then i can tell you that the average per 24 period is going waaaaaay more than you calculated.
statistics.. PAH..
you can make them say whatever you want
mr churchill was very right
if your "campaign" for a dual role a/c in the region is well intended then fair do's. However what you should bare in mind is that maybe, just maybe, the people involved in making the decisions knew a little of what they were doing. And... that there is a reason why there are so few dual role a/c in the uk.
But to come onto a forum of specialists in the field of police ops, as there are here, and spout poorly researched facts figures which "prove" the unit is a waste of money, then Im afraid you have to be prepared for some flack.
One more thing before diving for cover myself..
You "the public" arent
for nothing. Its there ready to go.
The price of having the a/c and crew ready to go at a MOMENTS notice, is that they dont get tied down with other work.
You could also apply the same logic to the fire brigade.
Go knock on their door, and tell them that they should driving around on patrol looking for fires, or helping out the cops in between fires, and see what the response is..!
lies, damn lies, and stuff from the FOIA..!
They are always open to (mis)-interpretation.
Assuming an "average" is alway a dangerous activity.
how long are the sorties
do they operate 24/7
how many hours lost for weather
how many weeks lost for annual
how many hours lost for engineering
how many hours used for training
none of these things have been factored into your "average"
1324 flying hours.. is that one a/c or two..?
if its one a/c then i can tell you that the average per 24 period is going waaaaaay more than you calculated.
statistics.. PAH..
you can make them say whatever you want
mr churchill was very right
if your "campaign" for a dual role a/c in the region is well intended then fair do's. However what you should bare in mind is that maybe, just maybe, the people involved in making the decisions knew a little of what they were doing. And... that there is a reason why there are so few dual role a/c in the uk.
But to come onto a forum of specialists in the field of police ops, as there are here, and spout poorly researched facts figures which "prove" the unit is a waste of money, then Im afraid you have to be prepared for some flack.
One more thing before diving for cover myself..
You "the public" arent
paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC
The price of having the a/c and crew ready to go at a MOMENTS notice, is that they dont get tied down with other work.
You could also apply the same logic to the fire brigade.
Go knock on their door, and tell them that they should driving around on patrol looking for fires, or helping out the cops in between fires, and see what the response is..!
/quote One which flies for 24 hours a day, with huge fuel tanks, small land anywhere size, all weather day/night/fog capability, flown and crewed by robots who never sleep, eat or need an outside life, never needs maintenance
They call him "The Stig"
They call him "The Stig"
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Sky-High, I can see that the majority of people on this site disagree with all that you are saying (in fact from what I have read, this is a regular occurance with you). Why don't you get Stephen Nolan to make this one of his topics? Or are you afraid that you will get shot down in flames, and require the assistance of said PSNI Copter???
Chief Bottle Washer
SkyHigh Ulster,
Whirlygig has summed up the situation pretty well: you have got to the stage where your repetitive carping about PSNI and your inability to accept the responses that you have received from Rotorheads indicate that you are outstaying your welcome
No more
Whirlygig has summed up the situation pretty well: you have got to the stage where your repetitive carping about PSNI and your inability to accept the responses that you have received from Rotorheads indicate that you are outstaying your welcome
No more
