HEMS Activation times
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Crab:
We do trust our engineers/mechanics.But we verify that they have done their job.They expect us to.
The walk around is not about checking the aircraft again. It is about checking if latches are closed,baggage has been stowed,and everything is clear. In between flights, it is about checking if any new problems have cropped up: you may have sprung a leak or your T/R might have done some weed whacking coming into a scene etc.
I suppose you think that the airline pilot who walks around his 737/747/757/767, sometimes in freezing weather, is also wasting his time------?
Alt3
We do trust our engineers/mechanics.But we verify that they have done their job.They expect us to.
The walk around is not about checking the aircraft again. It is about checking if latches are closed,baggage has been stowed,and everything is clear. In between flights, it is about checking if any new problems have cropped up: you may have sprung a leak or your T/R might have done some weed whacking coming into a scene etc.
I suppose you think that the airline pilot who walks around his 737/747/757/767, sometimes in freezing weather, is also wasting his time------?
Alt3
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My personal motto is: "Assumption is the mother of all fu
ups!!!!!"
I trust all my fellow workers whether it is a engineer/ pilot/ paramedic/ sister/ doctor/crewman etc. I however know how many times I thought I did something/forgot to do something/ plainly made a mistake. Busy with preflight and the paramedic asks about a flight/ somebody wants to schedule a meeting/ somebody comes to say hallo. Nobody will convince me they never had a destraction while doing preflight/ a engineer doing maintenance/ medical crew replenishing etc. I am sorry, but the only thing I have is extra eyes=prevention. I do not mind, and in effect by us it is part of procedure, for the med crews to walk around the aircraft again after start waiting for the stabilisation period just for incase. I have engineers insisting on a check after 1 did balancing adjustments and another duplicate inspection. WHY? Because we can and all of us sometimes see what we want to see!!!!! Why not take the lifesaving extra min/2 at the most
ups!!!!!"I trust all my fellow workers whether it is a engineer/ pilot/ paramedic/ sister/ doctor/crewman etc. I however know how many times I thought I did something/forgot to do something/ plainly made a mistake. Busy with preflight and the paramedic asks about a flight/ somebody wants to schedule a meeting/ somebody comes to say hallo. Nobody will convince me they never had a destraction while doing preflight/ a engineer doing maintenance/ medical crew replenishing etc. I am sorry, but the only thing I have is extra eyes=prevention. I do not mind, and in effect by us it is part of procedure, for the med crews to walk around the aircraft again after start waiting for the stabilisation period just for incase. I have engineers insisting on a check after 1 did balancing adjustments and another duplicate inspection. WHY? Because we can and all of us sometimes see what we want to see!!!!! Why not take the lifesaving extra min/2 at the most
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The same sort of pressures can get applied in police work too. SoPs vary quite a bit.
Many times I have been told how "good" a pilot is for lifting from the spot (without looking behind him before he goes). Maintain your own standards.
Many times I have been told how "good" a pilot is for lifting from the spot (without looking behind him before he goes). Maintain your own standards.
I didn't say I don't do a walkround - I just don't do one on a scramble because the aircraft is already prepared. As the pilot, my job is to get the aircraft started quickly, the other members of the crew will join me during the start and may well cast a glance over the aircraft and there are 2 engineers as the start crew, also looking for any leaks or problems that might affect the aircraft.
If this is being pampered then long may it continue but our engineers are civilian now, the colour of their overalls doesn't affect their professional competence - they are very firmly part of the team with a crucial role in flight safety.
BtW how may pilots do a post flight walkround - which is much more important? Alouette - I can't believe you would leave it until the next flight to check if your TR had sustained damage on the previous one.
If this is being pampered then long may it continue but our engineers are civilian now, the colour of their overalls doesn't affect their professional competence - they are very firmly part of the team with a crucial role in flight safety.
BtW how may pilots do a post flight walkround - which is much more important? Alouette - I can't believe you would leave it until the next flight to check if your TR had sustained damage on the previous one.
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Can the requirement to be airborne within a certain time period, whatever the reason, be legally enforcible on the Captain? Surely the over-riding factor is safety and if the Captain needs to take longer because, in his opinion, that is what is required then so be it.
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Crab, we enforce the "between flight" You land and shut down =you check! This does not take time(1-2 min) or a brain surgeon, but it does bridge the question of "when is the last flight of the day?" It does ensure a crew being able to hand over a aircraft with knowledge and not assumptions.(they had to land to hand over) Again. the new crew will double check aaand it is not to question the previous crew. Different eyes sees differnt things!
Avoid imitations
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Crab, yes you are pampered, no-one mentioned the colour of overalls, only the fact that you have someone in overalls to help you. 
Horses for courses. Some of us have no-one else to do the daily check A, the walk round checks and post flight checks after every sector. Same with some refuels and oil top-ups, and towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar. My aircraft often doesn't see a qualified engineer for 50 flying hours unless something goes wrong with it.
It's similar for many UK HEMS and Police ASUs.
I'm no longer doing either, but operating as single crew these days, I have no-one down the back to help spot errors. I can make a mistake as much as anyone else can who touches a door or filler cap, be it passenger, engineer, refueller or pax handling staff, so my mantra must be a personal cross-check of the exterior whenever I can.
Horses for courses. Some of us have no-one else to do the daily check A, the walk round checks and post flight checks after every sector. Same with some refuels and oil top-ups, and towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar. My aircraft often doesn't see a qualified engineer for 50 flying hours unless something goes wrong with it.
It's similar for many UK HEMS and Police ASUs.
I'm no longer doing either, but operating as single crew these days, I have no-one down the back to help spot errors. I can make a mistake as much as anyone else can who touches a door or filler cap, be it passenger, engineer, refueller or pax handling staff, so my mantra must be a personal cross-check of the exterior whenever I can.
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Crab:
I am sorry ,I should have worded it better. By next flight, I meant the next time I launch. At my location, a flight is typically a three leg affair and I check for leaks and damage, between legs(that sounds awful but you know what I mean!!!).
Also, I do a complete walk around after the final flight/leg too. During that time, I do an AD check(my helicopter has two daily airworthiness directives to be complied with), and make sure the cockpit is set up and organized for the next launch/incoming pilot.
And ,no, we in the US EMS business do not have ground crew saluting and seeing us off. In that respect,yes, you are pampered.
Aalt3.
I am sorry ,I should have worded it better. By next flight, I meant the next time I launch. At my location, a flight is typically a three leg affair and I check for leaks and damage, between legs(that sounds awful but you know what I mean!!!).
Also, I do a complete walk around after the final flight/leg too. During that time, I do an AD check(my helicopter has two daily airworthiness directives to be complied with), and make sure the cockpit is set up and organized for the next launch/incoming pilot.
And ,no, we in the US EMS business do not have ground crew saluting and seeing us off. In that respect,yes, you are pampered.
Aalt3.
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Our emphasis is on being 'focused' not fast. I've found that fast results in hurried results in mistakes. 'Focused' actually tends to result in quicker launch times.
That being said it is the borderline weather that deserves and gets the extra minutes of study. I routinely check the weather about every three hours but when paged for a flight I always recheck it. Easy when it's severe clear or zero/zero, but another thing all together when it's right on the edge.
A final note. If one of our medical crew ever pitched a "s#@! fit" over time to launch at one of my pilots they would be temporarily off flight assignment in a New York second subject to review where they would be permanently removed...
That being said it is the borderline weather that deserves and gets the extra minutes of study. I routinely check the weather about every three hours but when paged for a flight I always recheck it. Easy when it's severe clear or zero/zero, but another thing all together when it's right on the edge.
A final note. If one of our medical crew ever pitched a "s#@! fit" over time to launch at one of my pilots they would be temporarily off flight assignment in a New York second subject to review where they would be permanently removed...
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Every one of us has a different environment that we operate out of.
I suppose that if I was sitting on top of a secure roof-top pad, instead of on the GA ramp at an airport with no security or locked gates, then I might feel differently. I will take a good look at everything before I go.
And yes, I do a post-flight inspection every time that I get out of the helicopter.
I suppose that if I was sitting on top of a secure roof-top pad, instead of on the GA ramp at an airport with no security or locked gates, then I might feel differently. I will take a good look at everything before I go.
And yes, I do a post-flight inspection every time that I get out of the helicopter.
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For me, the powers that be, whether management or med crew, can demand whatever liftoff time they like. I'll lift off when I lift off. If they don't like it, then something will change, whether it's my place of employment or theirs. I don't take any crap from med crews about flying, just as I don't give them any about medical stuff. As I said above, I don't waste any time, but I don't hurry. Hurrying will inevitably lead to increased times, and often an aborted flight. Having a routine and sticking with it no matter what helps to keep launch times down and prevent mistakes. I'm another without a ground crew to assist. We get a mechanic (engineer) when an inspection is due or the ship is grounded. There's me, the nurse, and the medic. One takes care of the medical equipment, one operates the battery cart, and we launch ourselves. If there is any check of the aircraft, I do it, both before and after the flight, including fueling, replenishing oil, and servicing the oxygen. I also do most of the preventive maintenance - changing light bulbs, etc. I would love to have multiple ground support personnel, but that won't happen. You live with what you have, or you leave. I can live with things the way they are, as long as I'm careful and do a walkaround before and after every flight.
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Does anyone have a set of guidelines (I hesitate to call them rules) about what to do and not to do? Guidelines such as:
No running. Even if you're late - don't run. If you fall you'll be even later.
and so on.
No running. Even if you're late - don't run. If you fall you'll be even later.
and so on.
Hello,
As I had a chance to observe several police and HEMS/SAR operations (and am working for one) I am humbly putting forward my observations:
in Austria, OAMTC crews, flying EC 135s with Pilot and HEMS crewmember and doctor on board. (Swiss REGA works similar way)They regularly take off within three minutes ( not a required standard!) when weather is not an issue and flight is within designated operating area, which is fairly small for each base (about 50km circle). They have carefully prepared procedures -and also hardware, like crew quarters are only a few steps away from helicopter, movable helipad(on rails) allows single person to push helicopter out of hangar in half a minute, etc.
Helicopter, weather, medical stuff etc. is checked and prepared in advance and regularly updated-rechecked, no one except crew has acess to helicopter on duty, etc. Even kitchen could be modified - imagine coming back from a mission, finding burning home base, as someone left pan full of cooking oil on cooking plate!
As soon as request for takeoff and location is received, pilot goes out, doing start up. HEMS crewmember, responsible for tactical navigation, comes later with the details of destination, situation, etc.
I had a chance to fly with several UK police helicopters - mostly liftoff occoured in about 3 minutes after phone rang. Shortest scramble I witnessed was 1min 45 seconds from bell ringing to liftoff - and I swear, I never witnessed any rush - everything going on smoothly, as it was done thousand times before on a predetermined procedure, that was developed and finessed out thru experience.
Even big Bristows S61N SAR I had a privilege to fly aboard, was airborne within 5 minutes if needed. Everything prepared, special checklists in use, a lot of proffesionalism, and there never was any rush - everything went smoothly, but with no delay. Mind that crew has to put on immersion suits too!
Flew with RAF SAR Sea King too, but response time was a bit longer - also due to the fact that crew quarters were far away from helicopter, so a van was used to get there.
Where I fly, we regularly take off with Bell 412 in 5 - 6 minutes after the call, if weather and mission planning is not an issue. If there are doubts, it can be 10 or 20 minutes - until pilot, or better say, crew is happy with the decision to go. Still, preflight checks are done and myself as crewchief am doing final walkaroud when engines are already running - we caught two hydraulic leaks in the last two years this way. It is an added bonus, that crewchief is most of the times also licensed engineer, so snags can be often sorted out quickly.
In my humble opinion, short take off times (3-5 min) can be achieved safely under certain conditions, but the whole organisation must be adapted to such operations - including outfit of hangar, communications, crew quarters, personal equipment (boots with zippers, for instance,) etc.
If you approach this issue with "airline" or "Point A to point B transport of medics and patients" thinking, you will either achieve unacceptable scramble times, or you will skip safety. Truly, few seconds will hardly mean anything to a patient condition, but in rescue/HEMS business (also police ) there could be a big difference between 5 and 15 minutes takeoff time on final outcome, not to mention the decision to take off at all. Agree that there is no point in trying to catch some predetermined takeoff times, not only from the safety point, but also from the patient point - there is no sense in trying to reach that patient, only to tell the medics, waiting with him, that you cannot reach them - time lost that could be used to move patient with ground transport. It is even worse, to load the patient and then try to figure out where to deliver him, as planned destination hospital is out of reach due to storm that just developed.
Stay safe!
As I had a chance to observe several police and HEMS/SAR operations (and am working for one) I am humbly putting forward my observations:
in Austria, OAMTC crews, flying EC 135s with Pilot and HEMS crewmember and doctor on board. (Swiss REGA works similar way)They regularly take off within three minutes ( not a required standard!) when weather is not an issue and flight is within designated operating area, which is fairly small for each base (about 50km circle). They have carefully prepared procedures -and also hardware, like crew quarters are only a few steps away from helicopter, movable helipad(on rails) allows single person to push helicopter out of hangar in half a minute, etc.
Helicopter, weather, medical stuff etc. is checked and prepared in advance and regularly updated-rechecked, no one except crew has acess to helicopter on duty, etc. Even kitchen could be modified - imagine coming back from a mission, finding burning home base, as someone left pan full of cooking oil on cooking plate!
As soon as request for takeoff and location is received, pilot goes out, doing start up. HEMS crewmember, responsible for tactical navigation, comes later with the details of destination, situation, etc.
I had a chance to fly with several UK police helicopters - mostly liftoff occoured in about 3 minutes after phone rang. Shortest scramble I witnessed was 1min 45 seconds from bell ringing to liftoff - and I swear, I never witnessed any rush - everything going on smoothly, as it was done thousand times before on a predetermined procedure, that was developed and finessed out thru experience.
Even big Bristows S61N SAR I had a privilege to fly aboard, was airborne within 5 minutes if needed. Everything prepared, special checklists in use, a lot of proffesionalism, and there never was any rush - everything went smoothly, but with no delay. Mind that crew has to put on immersion suits too!
Flew with RAF SAR Sea King too, but response time was a bit longer - also due to the fact that crew quarters were far away from helicopter, so a van was used to get there.
Where I fly, we regularly take off with Bell 412 in 5 - 6 minutes after the call, if weather and mission planning is not an issue. If there are doubts, it can be 10 or 20 minutes - until pilot, or better say, crew is happy with the decision to go. Still, preflight checks are done and myself as crewchief am doing final walkaroud when engines are already running - we caught two hydraulic leaks in the last two years this way. It is an added bonus, that crewchief is most of the times also licensed engineer, so snags can be often sorted out quickly.
In my humble opinion, short take off times (3-5 min) can be achieved safely under certain conditions, but the whole organisation must be adapted to such operations - including outfit of hangar, communications, crew quarters, personal equipment (boots with zippers, for instance,) etc.
If you approach this issue with "airline" or "Point A to point B transport of medics and patients" thinking, you will either achieve unacceptable scramble times, or you will skip safety. Truly, few seconds will hardly mean anything to a patient condition, but in rescue/HEMS business (also police ) there could be a big difference between 5 and 15 minutes takeoff time on final outcome, not to mention the decision to take off at all. Agree that there is no point in trying to catch some predetermined takeoff times, not only from the safety point, but also from the patient point - there is no sense in trying to reach that patient, only to tell the medics, waiting with him, that you cannot reach them - time lost that could be used to move patient with ground transport. It is even worse, to load the patient and then try to figure out where to deliver him, as planned destination hospital is out of reach due to storm that just developed.
Stay safe!
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It takes longer than 2 minutes just to start the engine(s) and do the checklist, if you do it right. I defy anyone to start a non-FADEC turbine engine in under a minute, after getting into the cockpit and strapping in, doing even a cursory check of the cockpit before and after the start, and stabilizing the engine. With a Rolls-Royce engine, you have to stabilize it at idle for a full minute before even advancing the throttle, and it takes time to get to 100% rpm unless you risk overtemping and overtorquing. Even if it takes me longer than 5 minutes to lift off, we often get to the scene before the ground personnel are ready for us, and I've reached many scenes before EMS even arrived, so we had to circle. All this emphasis on short lift times is something I just don't understand. It doesn't help the patient or the crew, especially if the flight is aborted because of problems caused by hurrying. I don't waste any time, but I never, ever hurry.
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Gomer Pylot:
You read my mind.
All this talk about three- minute- launches in twin/complex helicopters is a wee bit supicious.I currently fly a single but even that takes at least about two minutes to spool up and be ready to go.
Unless you are a military SAR/CG guy, there is no such thing as a "scramble".
Shawn, to answer your question, my company frowns upon running to the machine.Sometimes my med crew tend to do that and I use that as an opportunity to slow everybody down.
Alt3.
You read my mind.
All this talk about three- minute- launches in twin/complex helicopters is a wee bit supicious.I currently fly a single but even that takes at least about two minutes to spool up and be ready to go.Unless you are a military SAR/CG guy, there is no such thing as a "scramble".
Shawn, to answer your question, my company frowns upon running to the machine.Sometimes my med crew tend to do that and I use that as an opportunity to slow everybody down.
Alt3.
GOM wrote
.
Why that, thats the advantage of HEMS, to be faster than the "groundtroops".
Thats the philosophie of HEMS in Germany and other european countries. Many times we are the first ones on scene and could treat the patients before the EMS arrives. These minutes are in many cases essential for the health of the patients.
By the way, an emergency doctor is always member of the crew ( at least in germany, austria, netherland and suisse )
skadi
and I've reached many scenes before EMS even arrived, so we had to circle
Why that, thats the advantage of HEMS, to be faster than the "groundtroops".
Thats the philosophie of HEMS in Germany and other european countries. Many times we are the first ones on scene and could treat the patients before the EMS arrives. These minutes are in many cases essential for the health of the patients.
By the way, an emergency doctor is always member of the crew ( at least in germany, austria, netherland and suisse )
skadi
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I've never seen anyone run to the aircraft. I've never even seen anyone consider running to the aircraft. At the speed most of us can run, you're only going to save a few seconds, so why bother? If the patient is going to die within 10 seconds, then the patient is going to die. Everybody dies. It's not worth killing more people in a futile attempt to save one.
We never land without having ground personnel secure an LZ, and we never start treating patients before the EMS personnel call for us. We have no legal standing for doing that, and it would be severely frowned upon. We're a private company, and only do transports when called by ground EMS or hospital personnel. Thus getting to the scene early is a waste of resources. I understand that it's different in much of Europe, and other countries of the world,but we're not in Europe or other countries of the world.
We never land without having ground personnel secure an LZ, and we never start treating patients before the EMS personnel call for us. We have no legal standing for doing that, and it would be severely frowned upon. We're a private company, and only do transports when called by ground EMS or hospital personnel. Thus getting to the scene early is a waste of resources. I understand that it's different in much of Europe, and other countries of the world,but we're not in Europe or other countries of the world.