PHI EMS Accident - Sam Houston National Forest, Texas June 8th
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Vietnam didn't do that, old age did that. People, and especially men, get much more conservative as they get older. They get set in their ways and refuse to change. Not all of us, but the vast majority. What you're describing are typical middle-aged men, and older, and they would be that way whether or not Vietnam had ever happened. I see as many people like you describe who aren't vets, but near the same age. It's just coincidene that they're Vietnam veterans, and what the war really did was dump a large number of helicopter pilots into the workplace. There has always been animosity between the generations, going back thousands of years, and that won't change this week.
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I sort off stand devided on this one. I have flown with ex old war pilots(not nam) and have to respect them for their basic airmanship and nav skills. Agree that some takes the kamakasi too far but man it is impressive to watch a pilot navigating by map only over a flat stretch of land with very little landmarks and hit the spot dead on whether day or night. On the other side I flew with young modernly trained pilots and saw the chaos if the gps fails with a fully functional autopliot onboard with VOR etc. I believe we need to find the balance between the 2. Yes, let us use technolegy(nvg, flir, computers, auto-pilot, etc) to it's utmost to safe lives but not at the expense of basic airmanship, gut feel and most importantly manual nav skills. Training and it's affordability again?
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Gomer Pylot:
The intent was not to disparage the vets. That was not my intention. The whole discussion was on how the culture is so different on our shores and all I was trying to highlight was the fact that a large number of Vietnam vets, returning from the war,did set the culture and the wages.We are still feeling the impact of those years. I speak especially of those in authority.Lead Pilots, Aviation Mangers, CP's and DO's. Almost all of them are of the Vietnam generation and it comes through in conversations with them.For example, the radalt issue was a direct quote from one of our Leads.When my company made it a no-go item if inop. he was livid.And even today he ignores that directive and has busted the GOM a couple of times.
Yet another guy said that the Check Airman giving him his check ride (a younger guy) was not going to tell him how to do things because:"I was being shot at when this pup was'nt even born". See where I am going with this?I bet there is animosity in Europe too between generations but it is probably for entirely different reasons.
Respectfully,
Alt 3.
The intent was not to disparage the vets. That was not my intention. The whole discussion was on how the culture is so different on our shores and all I was trying to highlight was the fact that a large number of Vietnam vets, returning from the war,did set the culture and the wages.We are still feeling the impact of those years. I speak especially of those in authority.Lead Pilots, Aviation Mangers, CP's and DO's. Almost all of them are of the Vietnam generation and it comes through in conversations with them.For example, the radalt issue was a direct quote from one of our Leads.When my company made it a no-go item if inop. he was livid.And even today he ignores that directive and has busted the GOM a couple of times.
Yet another guy said that the Check Airman giving him his check ride (a younger guy) was not going to tell him how to do things because:"I was being shot at when this pup was'nt even born". See where I am going with this?I bet there is animosity in Europe too between generations but it is probably for entirely different reasons.
Respectfully,
Alt 3.
I plead guilty to have been flying combat when quite a lot of you were not even thought of.....and have looked askance at more than a few youngsters....and quite rightly so.
That being said....I always embraced the notion that I can learn from everyone that I fly with or next to, be he brand new or older than dirt. I learned my trade at the side of some very experienced pilots and made like a sponge even when it was acid flowing.
It is not the Vietnam syndrome that causes what we sometimes see in our crusty old denizens of the tea room....but somethng more along the lines of burn out caused by working year after year in very hostile circumstances such as poor pay, obnoxious managers, and frustration over it all. They know only too well how it used to be and can still be when you get shown no courtesy or respect.
Don't expect to see them get all excited about things and perhaps you might take a moment for some self contemplation and try to visualize yourself thirty years down the road doing the same job as you are now.
Just remember these old farts have done things that legends are made of....and set the standard for those that followed in their foot steps and did it without all the fancy avionics, NVG's and the like. They did it with guts and skill and a great many of them did not make it home.
I would suggest there is a great many of us Vietnam Vets that have been urging improvements in safety, avionics, and training beginning in our Army days. Ask Nick Lappos, Devil 49, Dan Tyler, and the others where they stand on the issues and see if you don't get a chorus telling it like it is and how it should be.
There was a time in the GOM when the pilots went ten years without even a cost of living raise to their wages....think how it must be to raise families with a pay scheme such as that? The prevailing wage in the GOM is where it is due to these old farts standing up to management and demanding an improvement that you young'uns enjoy today.
Respect has to be earned.....it doesn't come along with a title.
That being said....I always embraced the notion that I can learn from everyone that I fly with or next to, be he brand new or older than dirt. I learned my trade at the side of some very experienced pilots and made like a sponge even when it was acid flowing.
It is not the Vietnam syndrome that causes what we sometimes see in our crusty old denizens of the tea room....but somethng more along the lines of burn out caused by working year after year in very hostile circumstances such as poor pay, obnoxious managers, and frustration over it all. They know only too well how it used to be and can still be when you get shown no courtesy or respect.
Don't expect to see them get all excited about things and perhaps you might take a moment for some self contemplation and try to visualize yourself thirty years down the road doing the same job as you are now.
Just remember these old farts have done things that legends are made of....and set the standard for those that followed in their foot steps and did it without all the fancy avionics, NVG's and the like. They did it with guts and skill and a great many of them did not make it home.
I would suggest there is a great many of us Vietnam Vets that have been urging improvements in safety, avionics, and training beginning in our Army days. Ask Nick Lappos, Devil 49, Dan Tyler, and the others where they stand on the issues and see if you don't get a chorus telling it like it is and how it should be.
There was a time in the GOM when the pilots went ten years without even a cost of living raise to their wages....think how it must be to raise families with a pay scheme such as that? The prevailing wage in the GOM is where it is due to these old farts standing up to management and demanding an improvement that you young'uns enjoy today.
Respect has to be earned.....it doesn't come along with a title.
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SASless - you're right that many of the vets have been very proactive and successful in improving things.
Unfortunately, all it takes is a few anal-retentive types to given them all a bad name and often hold back a lot of the attempts at progress by the others.
Unfortunately, all it takes is a few anal-retentive types to given them all a bad name and often hold back a lot of the attempts at progress by the others.
"Just a pilot"
alouette3-
Try this on for size-
"I work with a (fill in the blank), and he (fill in the blank) just like all those (fill in the blank)!"
The beauty of your argument, statement, or whatever, is that you can fill in the blank with any statement whatsoever, and it makes as much sense...
We Vietnam vets have been blamed for being both anti-authority and being "yes men", sometimes in the same breath by the intellectually lazy and/or stupid. "It ain't nothin' but a thang", I'm used to it.
The individual(s) you cite are just that, individuals. I'm sorry that y'all have to work with such an imperfect collection of human beings, them and you. Me, and most professionals I know, try to generate an atmosphere of mutual respect and learning on the job. It's a trick one learns in combat, or with experience in life. That, and honoring the conditions of employment- that, is the GOM, OPS Specs, etc- are aspects of the profession that make a professional truly a "professional". I am a professional and a lazy barsad- you know how "we" are- I find it makes my job a lot easier to do so. I'm experienced, capable and comfortable in far worse conditions than those I'm limited to by condition of employment.
As to the twin, IFR, etc. arguments- US EMS aircraft, regardless of type, generally come to grief in the same conditions and at about the same rate as VFR singles. Conspicuous by the lack are NVG equipped aircraft. The pilot is the single largest failure point in EMS accidents. Helping the pilot see and avoid is as effective at nights as it is in daytime.
Try this on for size-
"I work with a (fill in the blank), and he (fill in the blank) just like all those (fill in the blank)!"
The beauty of your argument, statement, or whatever, is that you can fill in the blank with any statement whatsoever, and it makes as much sense...
We Vietnam vets have been blamed for being both anti-authority and being "yes men", sometimes in the same breath by the intellectually lazy and/or stupid. "It ain't nothin' but a thang", I'm used to it.
The individual(s) you cite are just that, individuals. I'm sorry that y'all have to work with such an imperfect collection of human beings, them and you. Me, and most professionals I know, try to generate an atmosphere of mutual respect and learning on the job. It's a trick one learns in combat, or with experience in life. That, and honoring the conditions of employment- that, is the GOM, OPS Specs, etc- are aspects of the profession that make a professional truly a "professional". I am a professional and a lazy barsad- you know how "we" are- I find it makes my job a lot easier to do so. I'm experienced, capable and comfortable in far worse conditions than those I'm limited to by condition of employment.
As to the twin, IFR, etc. arguments- US EMS aircraft, regardless of type, generally come to grief in the same conditions and at about the same rate as VFR singles. Conspicuous by the lack are NVG equipped aircraft. The pilot is the single largest failure point in EMS accidents. Helping the pilot see and avoid is as effective at nights as it is in daytime.
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I knew I was going to get into trouble with this!! Me and my big mouth!!
Devil 49 SASless et al.
I would like to reiterate that the whole thread was not about the vets in general. We all know perfect rotters in all generations as we do great guys too.The point is not about respect or the lack thereof. It is about the culture.
If you have one bad apple in a position of authority, he sets the tone and the culture.Can't deny that. All I am saying is because of the experience and seniority some of these gentlemen have the power to make changes for the better and they resist it with one argument alone: 'I have done this a long time, seen worse, came out of it don't see the need for it'. That is the frustration for us "younger" types.
Anyway, that will be the last I will say on the subject to avoid ruffling anymore feathers.
Alt3.
Devil 49 SASless et al.
I would like to reiterate that the whole thread was not about the vets in general. We all know perfect rotters in all generations as we do great guys too.The point is not about respect or the lack thereof. It is about the culture.
If you have one bad apple in a position of authority, he sets the tone and the culture.Can't deny that. All I am saying is because of the experience and seniority some of these gentlemen have the power to make changes for the better and they resist it with one argument alone: 'I have done this a long time, seen worse, came out of it don't see the need for it'. That is the frustration for us "younger" types.
Anyway, that will be the last I will say on the subject to avoid ruffling anymore feathers.
Alt3.
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"Air Evac helicopter crashes near Prescott, crew OK"
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Zalt:
You beat me to it.
Air Evac helicopter crashes near Prescott, crew OK - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com
Long link so you might have to cut and paste.
We hear it was a brownout. Crew OK.
You beat me to it.
Air Evac helicopter crashes near Prescott, crew OK - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com
Long link so you might have to cut and paste.
We hear it was a brownout. Crew OK.
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Not so fast Alt 3 ... you don't get off that easy! I'm not a happy camper. Your post was offensive and I think you owe an apology!
You mentioned in your characterization we Vietnam helo pilot types had " "very little people skills(Get in shut
up and since I have been doing this for so long don't tell me anything!!)." " Sorry-oh chap! This is where you and a mirror need the very ponder about people skills, or is it posting skills, or attitude?
On the front side of being in this industry we RVN era helicopter pilots endured what we did, and helped build an industry for ourselves and folks like you (I assume you fly helicopters for a living), but on the back side I guarantee we won't put up with stuff like you mentioned in person.
Try having a personal go, face to face, like that to a real RVN helo vet and see how things develop. I suspect you will be out-classed and out-intellectualized in a heart beat - but of course you might not notice that either, considering " "I knew I was going to get into trouble with this!! Me and my big mouth!!" " If you knew you were going to get in trouble I'd say that puts you in the league of the mischaracterization you proferred.
What goes around, comes around!
You mentioned in your characterization we Vietnam helo pilot types had " "very little people skills(Get in shut
up and since I have been doing this for so long don't tell me anything!!)." " Sorry-oh chap! This is where you and a mirror need the very ponder about people skills, or is it posting skills, or attitude?On the front side of being in this industry we RVN era helicopter pilots endured what we did, and helped build an industry for ourselves and folks like you (I assume you fly helicopters for a living), but on the back side I guarantee we won't put up with stuff like you mentioned in person.
Try having a personal go, face to face, like that to a real RVN helo vet and see how things develop. I suspect you will be out-classed and out-intellectualized in a heart beat - but of course you might not notice that either, considering " "I knew I was going to get into trouble with this!! Me and my big mouth!!" " If you knew you were going to get in trouble I'd say that puts you in the league of the mischaracterization you proferred.
What goes around, comes around!
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WWIII:
Your points are well taken. I do see how my posts can be deemed offensive. I apologize. No strings attached.
Rather than get into another discussion about my abilities vs. anyone else's and derail this thread completely, I will retreat from this discussion.My final thought in my defence: I was trying to establish the reasons for a risk tolerant culture here.However, I can see that it was completely misconstrued.
Anyway, apologies, again ,to one and all.
Alt3
Your points are well taken. I do see how my posts can be deemed offensive. I apologize. No strings attached.
Rather than get into another discussion about my abilities vs. anyone else's and derail this thread completely, I will retreat from this discussion.My final thought in my defence: I was trying to establish the reasons for a risk tolerant culture here.However, I can see that it was completely misconstrued.
Anyway, apologies, again ,to one and all.
Alt3
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This is how PHI's Air Evac membership service is sold:
Air Evac Air Ambulance Membership Program is about having some piece-of- mind for you and your loved ones. No one ever knows when one of life's tragedies will happen. We have seen many unfortunate life experiences happen with people just like me and you.
Alouette,
No offense taken and your point about "problem" people is valid. As you might gather that seems to be a perception on the other side of the teeter totter of life.
As you will find upon a second reading, the squawk was about the "broad brush" that splashed a bit of paint about the place where a finer brush would have done the job.
I am sure you had no intent to ruffle molting feathers and had a serious point to make. It would appear all of us have encountered what we perceive to be problematic personalities in the cockpit.
Now for a penance....seek out a Vietnam Vet....tell him you are glad to see him home safe....and buy him a pint or two. Show him some wide eyed admiration and listen to his war stories. Those are the ones that start off with "...and there I was... or now this ain't no s**t!" instead of "Once upon a time....".
hangar flying is the cheapest way of finding gems to cherish and hold until the time when you need them. You have to admit a pilot who has been doing this since the late 60's or early '70's must know something or they would not still be around to be a pain in the butt.
No offense taken and your point about "problem" people is valid. As you might gather that seems to be a perception on the other side of the teeter totter of life.
As you will find upon a second reading, the squawk was about the "broad brush" that splashed a bit of paint about the place where a finer brush would have done the job.
I am sure you had no intent to ruffle molting feathers and had a serious point to make. It would appear all of us have encountered what we perceive to be problematic personalities in the cockpit.
Now for a penance....seek out a Vietnam Vet....tell him you are glad to see him home safe....and buy him a pint or two. Show him some wide eyed admiration and listen to his war stories. Those are the ones that start off with "...and there I was... or now this ain't no s**t!" instead of "Once upon a time....".
hangar flying is the cheapest way of finding gems to cherish and hold until the time when you need them. You have to admit a pilot who has been doing this since the late 60's or early '70's must know something or they would not still be around to be a pain in the butt.
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SASless:
Thanks for understanding the whole point.
As for penance---I do that already. Like I said, I work alongside quite a few of them.Barring my frustration on their mindset, they are my good friends.Having read the books (Chickenhawk etc.)several times over,it is fascinating to listen to hangar stories from them.My mentor in the EMS business is a vet.I have the greatest respect for him and I learned all my safety attitudes for this job from him.Go figure.
In addition at PR's and such, there will always be a couple of guys who show up, introduce themselves as having flown in Vietnam either as door gunners or pilots or having worked on the machines.I always shake his hand, give him my card, ask him to give a call when he is in town next and offer him a ride/tour.I always thank them for thie service and express happiness that they made it back safe. So ,as you can see, it is not a lack of respect that I have.But you are correct, the paint brush was a bit too wide.
Thanks again.
Alt3.
Thanks for understanding the whole point.
As for penance---I do that already. Like I said, I work alongside quite a few of them.Barring my frustration on their mindset, they are my good friends.Having read the books (Chickenhawk etc.)several times over,it is fascinating to listen to hangar stories from them.My mentor in the EMS business is a vet.I have the greatest respect for him and I learned all my safety attitudes for this job from him.Go figure.
In addition at PR's and such, there will always be a couple of guys who show up, introduce themselves as having flown in Vietnam either as door gunners or pilots or having worked on the machines.I always shake his hand, give him my card, ask him to give a call when he is in town next and offer him a ride/tour.I always thank them for thie service and express happiness that they made it back safe. So ,as you can see, it is not a lack of respect that I have.But you are correct, the paint brush was a bit too wide.
Thanks again.
Alt3.
Membership
Zalt,
The membership drive has nothing to do with what happened, start a new thread for that discussion.
We are committed to providing consistent, safe, reliable helicopter service anywhere in the world. Thats how CHC describes its operations on its website. Its all relative being they had a fatal crash one in South America not to long ago. I am sure there are countless other examples of the same.
I am not a PHI pilot nor one that works for a company that does memberships.
The membership drive has nothing to do with what happened, start a new thread for that discussion.
We are committed to providing consistent, safe, reliable helicopter service anywhere in the world. Thats how CHC describes its operations on its website. Its all relative being they had a fatal crash one in South America not to long ago. I am sure there are countless other examples of the same.
I am not a PHI pilot nor one that works for a company that does memberships.
LZ Lolo was another one of those places "young men" got to prove what they were made of. Can you count the downed Huey's?
This link discusses the losses at Lolo.
Google Image Result for http://www.174ahc.org/images/lolo3.jpg
This link discusses the losses at Lolo.
Google Image Result for http://www.174ahc.org/images/lolo3.jpg
Last edited by SASless; 27th Jun 2008 at 22:30.