Italian NH 90 accident 1st June 08
Shawn, Lake Bracciano is located about 50 miles north of Rome in a hilly volcanic area, the lake itself pretty much fills up a spent (are they ever) volcanic crater and the rim elevation goes to about 1200' within a couple of miles of the shore.
The NH90 performance took place after the National Aerobatic Team had completed their performance.
According to some witnesses the sky conditions and the lack of wind contributed to what is known as mirror effect on the water surface.
The a/c commander (Italian Army Captain) was supposedly highly experienced and was part of the development group for this type of a/c, he is survived by his wife and two daughters.
The NH90 performance took place after the National Aerobatic Team had completed their performance.
According to some witnesses the sky conditions and the lack of wind contributed to what is known as mirror effect on the water surface.
The a/c commander (Italian Army Captain) was supposedly highly experienced and was part of the development group for this type of a/c, he is survived by his wife and two daughters.
Apologies for the thread necromancy.
I was just sent a video of this mishap.
The tag was "liveleak" which I think is where it's currently posted.
It took me a while for me to figure out what aircraft it was, and what year ... I then figured I'd see what the PPRuNe Rotorheads thought about it.
The maneuver appears to be an attempt at a loop. That may be a limitation of single perspective/zoom of the person holding the camera. I'll try to see if there are other perspective clips to understand what was alleged as the maneuver being flown before they ran out of altitude.
The grainy film from the Italian site makes it difficult to see what it is he was doing.
Very sad to see one of the brotherhood lost to this, but grateful that two got out alive.
I was just sent a video of this mishap.
The tag was "liveleak" which I think is where it's currently posted.
It took me a while for me to figure out what aircraft it was, and what year ... I then figured I'd see what the PPRuNe Rotorheads thought about it.
The maneuver appears to be an attempt at a loop. That may be a limitation of single perspective/zoom of the person holding the camera. I'll try to see if there are other perspective clips to understand what was alleged as the maneuver being flown before they ran out of altitude.
The grainy film from the Italian site makes it difficult to see what it is he was doing.
Very sad to see one of the brotherhood lost to this, but grateful that two got out alive.
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Trashed Puma on Live leak
My apology's Rotorheads for digging this up, the e mail I had was from a very excited pal of mine and I assumed quite incorrectly that it was fresh.
Also my condolences if this has caused any upset to friends of the Pilot involved.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Also my condolences if this has caused any upset to friends of the Pilot involved.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Last edited by Peter-RB; 1st Mar 2012 at 14:33.
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the event that you describe sounds like crash of NH90 that happened in Italy in 2008
NH90 crashes into Bracciano Lake during an airshow « The Aviationist
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1321031385
NH90 crashes into Bracciano Lake during an airshow « The Aviationist
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1321031385
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I'm pretty sure it's produced, AFAIK it is not made available to the general public though. If the aircraft had been on the civilian register instead you would then find the report here.
Last edited by Dg800; 15th Jan 2013 at 09:59.
I guess without the official report it all remains in the dark then
I'm sure you are right 212 - I merely ask to provide some balance to the recent focus on owner / drivers and any view that if you managed to earn a few quid through luck or judgement and as a result managed to realise you childhood dream of flying you are not pre-programmed to shunt and that even those who would be readily accepted as "professional" get it wrong...
Last edited by Pittsextra; 15th Jan 2013 at 12:01.
Pitts: I don't think there is any doubt about this. Anyone can get it wrong - anytime, anywhere.
Hopefully, within disciplined accountable regimes (such as the military) these odds are reduced but .. there are always (and always shall be) exceptions.
Hopefully, within disciplined accountable regimes (such as the military) these odds are reduced but .. there are always (and always shall be) exceptions.
Pitts.
You seem pretty hung up on owner/drivers (your descriptor) v's Professionals (Civ or mil). Can I ask why? Are you an 'owner/driver', do you aspire to be, did you have a 'childhood dream of flying'?
I ask because you seem to miss the point, on the other thread, as to why many of us (current and ex professionals) think the JP Fire Service is an inherantly flawed idea.
Of course professionals can f'ck up too - we all can. Helicopter flying, at any level, is a risky business. It's just that years of training, thousands of flight hours, the constant critical appraisal by supervisors and colleagues, helps to mitigate most of these risks. Does the average 'owner driver' have these benefits? And as you keep pointing out, even mil pilots f'up sometimes.
Albert
btw: it's the guys in the pedalo I feel sorry for!
I merely ask to provide some balance to the recent focus on owner / drivers and any view that if you managed to earn a few quid through luck or judgement and as a result managed to realise you childhood dream of flying you are not pre-programmed to shunt and that even those who would be readily accepted as "professional" get it wrong...
I ask because you seem to miss the point, on the other thread, as to why many of us (current and ex professionals) think the JP Fire Service is an inherantly flawed idea.
Of course professionals can f'ck up too - we all can. Helicopter flying, at any level, is a risky business. It's just that years of training, thousands of flight hours, the constant critical appraisal by supervisors and colleagues, helps to mitigate most of these risks. Does the average 'owner driver' have these benefits? And as you keep pointing out, even mil pilots f'up sometimes.
Albert
btw: it's the guys in the pedalo I feel sorry for!
Last edited by Al-bert; 15th Jan 2013 at 13:47.
Hey Al-bert. Ha ha yes the pedalo had a grandstand seat!
Not really hung up on it just that recent threads, not just the JP fire service but also the Harrogate accident, the Mark Weir, Colin McRae and the thread on the correlation of wealth and private flying.
Don't misunderstand me I do think there has been some pretty poor airmanship in these case but there is also a bt of smugness (maybe I missed the humour or banter?) from some.
For my own flying I don't own a helicopter but I do love flying (with my PPL (A) and PPL (H) and am lucky to fly triple digit hours per year for my own enjoyment. I take pride in my own flying and whilst not maybe the best in the world I still like to think I work hard to be better.
I think I mentioned in a different thread but actually the 2012 AAIB report on all helicopter accidents make for an interesting view. Drivers with PPL (H) figure less than you'd think.
Not really hung up on it just that recent threads, not just the JP fire service but also the Harrogate accident, the Mark Weir, Colin McRae and the thread on the correlation of wealth and private flying.
Don't misunderstand me I do think there has been some pretty poor airmanship in these case but there is also a bt of smugness (maybe I missed the humour or banter?) from some.
For my own flying I don't own a helicopter but I do love flying (with my PPL (A) and PPL (H) and am lucky to fly triple digit hours per year for my own enjoyment. I take pride in my own flying and whilst not maybe the best in the world I still like to think I work hard to be better.
I think I mentioned in a different thread but actually the 2012 AAIB report on all helicopter accidents make for an interesting view. Drivers with PPL (H) figure less than you'd think.
Pitts - I'm not knocking PPL's. In fact a good friend of mine flies an ex mil helicopter around the airshows and I would never denigrate his skill or professionalism. What I and others have tried to point out is the flaw, as I see it, in JP's projected operation. Others have pointed out the risks but I see it as little more than a PR excercise due to the type and capability plus the restricted availabilityof the machine.
The differance between a lot of PPL pilots and myself (can't speak for the rest of the pessimists) is, I didn't have a boyhood dream to fly. I didn't fly for enjoyment, although I did enjoy my job. It was my profession, it's what I did for a living. And I had a lot of people making sure I did it right.
The differance between a lot of PPL pilots and myself (can't speak for the rest of the pessimists) is, I didn't have a boyhood dream to fly. I didn't fly for enjoyment, although I did enjoy my job. It was my profession, it's what I did for a living. And I had a lot of people making sure I did it right.
No fair enough Al-bert and yes I see this guy JP, even if he is well intended, does love PR. Maybe it suits his business? I don't know.
I hear you re: PPL's and it being a job for some others.
1979 Observers book of aircraft was the thing I got started with then you get distracted with the need to earn a few quid. Damn those bills!
I hear you re: PPL's and it being a job for some others.
1979 Observers book of aircraft was the thing I got started with then you get distracted with the need to earn a few quid. Damn those bills!
Avoid imitations
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I used to display a very similar helicopter, for the RAF. The display was not simply me, doing something ad-hoc; everything was strictly controlled. I was selected to be a display pilot after an operational tour and two tours instructing. By then I had a couple of thousand hours and was serving as an instructor on the operational conversion unit for the type.
To "work up" to a display I was put with a previous display pilot, a more senior officer and more experienced type instructor who was already familiar with some of the more adventurous manoeuvres proposed. We discussed them one by one, on the ground.
We then flew together and he demonstrated them individually. I then practised, with him supervising as safety pilot and captain. We came back and discussed each manoeuvre on the ground again and what could go wrong, and how I would "escape" if things went wrong.
I was then sent off with my display crewman, to practice the individual manoeuvres, in a safe area. When I was happy I fully understood what I was trying to achieve with each manoeuvre, and how to do it safely and consistently, I was required to put together a proposed sequence. The manoeuvres were stitched together so the aircraft could be flown smoothly and without over-stretching it, or the crew, beyond their limits and with a margin of safety. For example, all turns were done away from the crowd.
The sequence was discussed with the other instructor. When he was happy, we were required to present the proposed display sequence to the Squadron Commander, who asked many questions and put forward a few "what ifs". The sequence was then authorised to be flown. I then flew the display at base with the Wing Commander and the Group Captain Station Commander watching. All flying was stopped for the event and the station fire crew were brought to immediate readiness.
After we had flown the sequence, twice, we were debriefed again. I was then authorised to practice the whole thing until everyone was happy to present it to the Air Officer Commanding, i.e. at Command level. We practiced regularly, at the end of the day's flying programme.
A video (from the ground) was made of the display and I was required to dub a commentary over it, explaining in technical terms what we were doing with the aircraft. This was sent to Command, for the AOC to review. A day was set for him to visit and again we flew it for him, as before. Finally, after more questions, the display was formally authorised, and a minimum base height included. I was then required to attend a joint services display safety briefing at Central Flying School, before the season began.
I displayed throughout the season, without incident, to a fair bit of acclaim. It was a fairly big helicopter and it made an impressive sight because we were flying manoeuvres not normally seen, and certainly not authorised in squadron service. We took the aircraft to its limits. Some people were convinced we were looping the aircraft at about four hundred feet- we weren't, but it was deliberately made to appear that it did, at least from the crowd line.
As an aside, I was given a couple of "non airfield" locations to display at, one of them being a large American comms base, for their families day. I was concerned about displaying there so I got permission to go off in advance to overfly and recce the site. I deemed it unsuitable because there was no crowd line, so on the day we flew in and did a static display instead. To my dismay, two other military helicopters who had obviously not recce'd, did display and carried out vertical manoeuvres directly above the crowd, which I thought totally outrageous and stupid.
The point is, in the case of military display flying, at least in UK, the whole thing is very strictly controlled. I have no reason to believe it is less so elsewhere.
It seems to me that the mistake made by the NH-90 pilot was a simple handling error on the day. He appears not to have put in enough in-turn pedal during his wing-over. The aircraft side-slipped into the turn, losing him height and delaying the achievement of his roll-out heading. By the time he realised he was too low, a very high ROD had built up and there was not enough recovery height available.
To "work up" to a display I was put with a previous display pilot, a more senior officer and more experienced type instructor who was already familiar with some of the more adventurous manoeuvres proposed. We discussed them one by one, on the ground.
We then flew together and he demonstrated them individually. I then practised, with him supervising as safety pilot and captain. We came back and discussed each manoeuvre on the ground again and what could go wrong, and how I would "escape" if things went wrong.
I was then sent off with my display crewman, to practice the individual manoeuvres, in a safe area. When I was happy I fully understood what I was trying to achieve with each manoeuvre, and how to do it safely and consistently, I was required to put together a proposed sequence. The manoeuvres were stitched together so the aircraft could be flown smoothly and without over-stretching it, or the crew, beyond their limits and with a margin of safety. For example, all turns were done away from the crowd.
The sequence was discussed with the other instructor. When he was happy, we were required to present the proposed display sequence to the Squadron Commander, who asked many questions and put forward a few "what ifs". The sequence was then authorised to be flown. I then flew the display at base with the Wing Commander and the Group Captain Station Commander watching. All flying was stopped for the event and the station fire crew were brought to immediate readiness.
After we had flown the sequence, twice, we were debriefed again. I was then authorised to practice the whole thing until everyone was happy to present it to the Air Officer Commanding, i.e. at Command level. We practiced regularly, at the end of the day's flying programme.
A video (from the ground) was made of the display and I was required to dub a commentary over it, explaining in technical terms what we were doing with the aircraft. This was sent to Command, for the AOC to review. A day was set for him to visit and again we flew it for him, as before. Finally, after more questions, the display was formally authorised, and a minimum base height included. I was then required to attend a joint services display safety briefing at Central Flying School, before the season began.
I displayed throughout the season, without incident, to a fair bit of acclaim. It was a fairly big helicopter and it made an impressive sight because we were flying manoeuvres not normally seen, and certainly not authorised in squadron service. We took the aircraft to its limits. Some people were convinced we were looping the aircraft at about four hundred feet- we weren't, but it was deliberately made to appear that it did, at least from the crowd line.
As an aside, I was given a couple of "non airfield" locations to display at, one of them being a large American comms base, for their families day. I was concerned about displaying there so I got permission to go off in advance to overfly and recce the site. I deemed it unsuitable because there was no crowd line, so on the day we flew in and did a static display instead. To my dismay, two other military helicopters who had obviously not recce'd, did display and carried out vertical manoeuvres directly above the crowd, which I thought totally outrageous and stupid.
The point is, in the case of military display flying, at least in UK, the whole thing is very strictly controlled. I have no reason to believe it is less so elsewhere.
It seems to me that the mistake made by the NH-90 pilot was a simple handling error on the day. He appears not to have put in enough in-turn pedal during his wing-over. The aircraft side-slipped into the turn, losing him height and delaying the achievement of his roll-out heading. By the time he realised he was too low, a very high ROD had built up and there was not enough recovery height available.