Are you busy?

[ROTORVATION]

Not the most exciting thread....apologies! Have any of you onshore pilot types (UK) noticed a significant slowdown in training / trial lesson sales & charter enquiries?

I'm strugling to understand whether the company I work for is not being active enough in chasing new business, or simply, every operator is not as busy as they usd to be.

We could keep 2 full time instructors going, doing 75 - 85 hrs a month plus a part timer FI to cover any overflow. We've been lucky to keep one instructor busy for the last 4 months.

Any observations?

RV

[Camp Freddie]

well when confidence in the economy goes the helicopter is going to be the first thing you stop using isnt it?

I met a pilot from a major south eastern england corporate operator about 2 months ago and I asked him if the credit cruch had affected business and his reply was "our clients are so wealthy that this wont affect anything", then a couple of weeks ago I heard anecdotal evidence that this same operator has had a significant reduction in activity, so if this is true I am pleased I am not in that sector right now.

also I have heard that a couple of training schools that I am aware of have had a noticable slowdown this spring as well.

regards

CF

[nigelh]

Dont forget that prices have gone steadily up due to fuel and will go up a lot more when the new CAA charges come in on your aoc . I am very bearish about the future in this country when we are ruled by beaurocrats , risk assessment officers,tree huggers and fun police and to make matters worse , we ( or some of us ) pay for these people whose only aim is to create barriers and stop things from happening .......theirs is the mentality that bans paddling pools ( drowning) , bans conkers ( poorly knuckles), bans students from throwing their hats in the air at the end of their course ( sore eye?) bans smoking everywhere ( poorly lungs) and as we know landing in a garden with a bush in it is also banned

Just sold a 109 Mk 2 pretty quickly and had offers for my squirrel so dont see the collapse of heli prices just yet . Try finding an AS 350 B2 or B3 for sensible money ......

[KNIEVEL77]

Are the price of training lessons likely to increase due to the fuel prices going up or do you think the flying schools will keep the prices the same as now so as not to put trainees off taking up their PPL(H)in the future?

[helimutt]

No way will the training schools absorb ever increasing prices. I imagine some will put their prices up Fast! There's not a great deal of profit in an hours flying anyway.

[kneedwondean]

We've been fairly busy with trial lessons the past few months, and have a couple of new PPL students. That said, we finally caved in and had to put our prices up. Jetranger and R44 saw the biggest increases. R22 stayed the same but there is nothing in it now, just my wages! Time will tell if this makes a difference.

[KNIEVEL77]

£310????? WOW. Now I would seriously have to have a rethink if the hourly rate went up to that price!

[McBad]

Agreed! £310 per hour would put paid to my PPL dreams. Is their R22 gold-plated or something?

M

[helimutt]

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!!!! IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE SO IDIOTIC, USE A CREDIT CARD TO PAY FOR THE ADDED INSURANCE IF THEY GO TITS UP!

Any school who gives a discount for payment up front??? What are they doing that for? On their way out? Financial problems?

£310/hr? Where is that?

[biggles99]

£310 an hour for an R22

£50 for the instructor
£100 for the owner's cost on the heli
£55 for the fuel

so far, all cost.

add £50 for profit - not unreasonable given the risk and the standing overheads, and that's £255.

allocate a sensible amount for landing fees - say £10 per hour, and that's £265.

£265 +vat is £311.

doesn't seem that unreasonable to me to want to make a profit of £50 a hour for 50 hours done over 6 to 12 months by any operator.

that's £2,500 gross profit - not net profit - on a turnover of £13,250.

most transport related industries work on a GP of at least 40%,not 18%.

Ask yourself how many PPL courses a school does in a year,and then look at whether YOU could run everything else involved in running a training business on the nnn x £2,500 that you will have available to spend.


Big Ls

[Hughes500]

Helimutt
Whats the problem with paying upfront ? I give a discount on upfront payment for the following reasons ( my school is not in any financial problems)

1. Reduces invoices and trips to bank, which costs
2. prevents having to chase money ( there are a lot of dreamers out there) and having to wait 30 plus days to be paid
3. Shows comittment both ways

Now Helimutt when you fly with an airline do you ever pay for the flight after receiving the goods er no, so why should we be any different ?

[SASless]

Nigel,

How does the UK compare to the rest of JARland for costs?

Are the Peans as bad for administrative costs for licensing and "CAA" type costs?

[nigelh]

Sasless i am the wrong one to ask as i looked at flying and operating in the UK 25 yrs ago .....and went to the states !!! Sadly all the suites have since bred amongst themselves and employed all their children There is no hope left for us over here i am afraid . An AS 350 b2 ( say $1.2m min value ) would have to go out at almost $2,000 per hr to make any sensible money at all when operated on an aoc with all of the charges involved , and to do that you would have to find an owner happy to let you use his machine and pay him say $1400 wet hire . ( and thats still paying the pilots peanuts !!) Stay where you are !!!!!!!!and keep your sanity .

[helimutt]

Hughes500. You saying all of your customers pay in cash? I must have taken payment for 00's of trial lesons/lessons etc and I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I took cash.

You say 1. Reduces invoices and trips to bank, which costs.

well, I dont get this one. Trips to the bank? using credit cards?

2. prevents having to chase money ( there are a lot of dreamers out there) and having to wait 30 plus days to be paid

Can't people agree to pay at the end of each day like many schools? say keep a small amount of credit or something like many schools

3. Shows comittment both ways

Come off it. If you're a professional outfit then i'd expect a certain level of service if I was a customer.


Sorry but my argument still stands. H500, If you run a successful school/flying company then great. I admire you for your ability to survive in these testing times, when a lot of companies think it's easier to close their doors owing money.
My view has always has been NEVER PAY A SCHOOL UPFRONT. Do so at your own cost!!! Seen too many people ripped off when the school goes under.
Everyone who is paying for training should be intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision given the facts before them.


Just thought i'd add, when I say dont pay upfront, I mean for the whole course, ie a whole PPL or CPL or FI course.
Obviously a couple of hours credit is not an issue. Hope that helps clear that one up.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

NEVER PAY A XXX UPFRONT

As Three Blades wisely observed in another thread, this is a loan. Loans have credit risk unless you have (good) collatarel security or covenants or if you opt for an escrow arrangement.

Whether it's a holiday, a kitchen or a flying course this risk will be present. It may be reduced by insurance, associations, payment methods and government credit legislation, or zilch.

Bankruptcy exists for good reasons for both individuals and companies. There's often little or no reason to vilify the parties involved. And it does happen. Caveat emptor.

Note: if a discount for bulk upfront payment equates to an APR that seems excessive then this tells you something about the counterparty.

[Whirlybird]

So, we have a recession (or close to it), there's little profit for helicopter schools at the best of times, fuel is continually going up, there are less students around, we're discussing whether schools are likely to go under (or we should be)...

And some of you are still considering paying for a whole PPL(H) course up front!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul_tail rotor_Wint]

£310, wow around $950 NZ dollars,

Highest hourly rate $510 NZ dollars, generally all $475+ now.

Wouldn't dent the overseas students, especially coming here with UK pounds.
Which is now turning out to be the target for training schools here.

Maybe the locals will, but with interest free loans I didn't think it will turn them off.

[choppertop]

Two months on...

... from Ivor's contribution and how's it looking out there in training land, folks? Do I splash out another 10 big ones to get my FI ticket this Autumn or... er ... not?!

[photex]

I appreciate it's hard to give exact figures, but how much would an 'experienced' CFI (say 800 hours) earn if he/she was prepared to re-locate anywhere in the UK?

[Flingingwings]

Or that some schools will still expect you to attend work (and I use the term work in the loosest sense) on a poor weather day or on a day when you've no flying booked so that you can be available should work walk in off the street, and whilst you wait you can sweep the hangar and clean the aircraft all for no money

Enjoyed the flying but hated the one company I FI'd for