Cleveland Police go it alone!!!!!!!!
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Job at NPAS
Props
With mental skills of an enormity never seen before in police circles can I suggest you are either already part of NPAS or highly sort after by that team.
Good on yer.
With mental skills of an enormity never seen before in police circles can I suggest you are either already part of NPAS or highly sort after by that team.
Good on yer.
Props, I'm going to go slowly, here.
If you give someone £5082000 and they give you £1000000 then you've spent £4082000.
With me so far?
Okay, now someone else gives you £1596000 and you've actually got £2486000 less than when you started.
See?
So, while a new role equipped 135 might come in at around £5 million, it cost the police Authority half that in cash.
If you give someone £5082000 and they give you £1000000 then you've spent £4082000.
With me so far?
Okay, now someone else gives you £1596000 and you've actually got £2486000 less than when you started.
See?
So, while a new role equipped 135 might come in at around £5 million, it cost the police Authority half that in cash.
Props, you do realise that the T1 had to go, the CAA dictated all Police A/C were to be SPIFR. Can't remember by what exact date, so Cleveland and the other T1/P1 users got together to buy in bulk, therefore saving money.
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JAFO thats big print lad
JAFO, I can read normal size print thank you, even if I dont work on the west coast.
My point if you had missed it WAS....
Why would Clevelands CC Mr Price, PAY eurocopter £5m+ which IS what HIS REPORT actually states if it was as cheap as you think?
A friend at HQ up at Ladgate Lane tells me that is the figure that Cleveland coughed up.
The dates of THE "PAYMENTS MADE" are listed for all to see on the Chiefs report. (that bold print is for JAFO)
The "trade in and HO grant" figures are also listed, but I didnt include them as I presumed the 135 must have cost more than the £5+ million ACTUALLY PAID out.
My question to anyone "who may know these things" IS.....how much is a role equipped police EC135P2 which is what Cleveland purchased? I know all about the T1 and why it was put out to pasture, and it wasnt because it was dog rough at the end.
If I was paying for a new car/helicopter, I wouldnt be giving someone extra cash which was listed, only for them to return it later....catch my drift JAFO and I'm typing as slowly as I can
As for working for NPAS, I'm open to offers as long as it doesnt invlove anymore 12 hour night shifts up at Sleepy Hollow without a comfy bed as those office chairs were not very comfortable at 3am up in the north east, and the ghosts of Hangar 1 kept everyone awake as well!
My point if you had missed it WAS....
Why would Clevelands CC Mr Price, PAY eurocopter £5m+ which IS what HIS REPORT actually states if it was as cheap as you think?
A friend at HQ up at Ladgate Lane tells me that is the figure that Cleveland coughed up.
The dates of THE "PAYMENTS MADE" are listed for all to see on the Chiefs report. (that bold print is for JAFO)
The "trade in and HO grant" figures are also listed, but I didnt include them as I presumed the 135 must have cost more than the £5+ million ACTUALLY PAID out.
My question to anyone "who may know these things" IS.....how much is a role equipped police EC135P2 which is what Cleveland purchased? I know all about the T1 and why it was put out to pasture, and it wasnt because it was dog rough at the end.
If I was paying for a new car/helicopter, I wouldnt be giving someone extra cash which was listed, only for them to return it later....catch my drift JAFO and I'm typing as slowly as I can
As for working for NPAS, I'm open to offers as long as it doesnt invlove anymore 12 hour night shifts up at Sleepy Hollow without a comfy bed as those office chairs were not very comfortable at 3am up in the north east, and the ghosts of Hangar 1 kept everyone awake as well!
Chief Bottle Washer
Props,
I feel that you should read the CC's document a little more carefully: the list is of "Payments", which tabulates both payments out and payments in.
Poor compilation of the figures in the report, I agree, but Cleveland have (as stated clearly by many already) purchased a new machine for a capital outlay by the Force of only £2.486m. The guaranteed trade in of £1m may become more, and the Force will receive 50% of any amount above this figure less transactional costs, which would further reduce the £2.486m of the purchase.
I feel that you should read the CC's document a little more carefully: the list is of "Payments", which tabulates both payments out and payments in.
Poor compilation of the figures in the report, I agree, but Cleveland have (as stated clearly by many already) purchased a new machine for a capital outlay by the Force of only £2.486m. The guaranteed trade in of £1m may become more, and the Force will receive 50% of any amount above this figure less transactional costs, which would further reduce the £2.486m of the purchase.
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Senior Pilot, thank you for that.
I'll have another word with my contact up at HQ tomorrow as they said McLuckie is a fan of PFI but even he had to stump up the cash this time.
I'm still curious as to how much a new 135 police role equipped a/c is from Macs, I mean EC uk?
I'm going for a lie down now its well past my bed time with all these millions of 00000's and the extra large print I've been looking at
NPAS let me know if you need anyone who is good with a calcualtor
I'll have another word with my contact up at HQ tomorrow as they said McLuckie is a fan of PFI but even he had to stump up the cash this time.
I'm still curious as to how much a new 135 police role equipped a/c is from Macs, I mean EC uk?
I'm going for a lie down now its well past my bed time with all these millions of 00000's and the extra large print I've been looking at
NPAS let me know if you need anyone who is good with a calcualtor
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Roll up roll up, £1 a go around the ground.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 28th Feb 2011 at 19:45. Reason: Photo link added: image too large for PPRuNe
Tightgit
The boro will do anything to pull the fans in these days
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That pic seems to have grown in size!
Girders eh?
Ah yes Iron Bru, I've heard of it.
From what the local paper says, he may have to dust off that CV as McLuckie the lead councillor on the CPA says that they ae looking very closely at the air operations unit with the latest gov cutbacks, so he may be able to add that little snippet to his CV.
Girders eh?
Ah yes Iron Bru, I've heard of it.
From what the local paper says, he may have to dust off that CV as McLuckie the lead councillor on the CPA says that they ae looking very closely at the air operations unit with the latest gov cutbacks, so he may be able to add that little snippet to his CV.
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Speed dating at Cleveland CPA event!
This was the latest idea from Cleveland Police at their stake holder event.
Speed Dating!
I wonder if they brought in a consultant to dream that one up?
Air Support got £940
Look for the 11.20am event.
2010-11 Stakeholder Event
Speed Dating!
I wonder if they brought in a consultant to dream that one up?
Air Support got £940
Look for the 11.20am event.
2010-11 Stakeholder Event
Props
I'm sorry, I can't tell you how much it cost any more times than I have already. I've lost the will to try; you really do have all the numbers that you need.
I'm sorry, I can't tell you how much it cost any more times than I have already. I've lost the will to try; you really do have all the numbers that you need.
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Props is a gentleman of the avaition world and digs at him are below the belt especially if the poster is not a commercial pilot himself. 
I read the same cleveland report and came up with the same numbers but then noticed the part about the Home office paying 40% towards the purchase in the text. Its badly written or McLuckie has paid over the odds?
Props has probably been told by his source up in the ivory towers (LZ hq) that its costing Cleveland over five million this year including the £2 million a year unit running costs.
We've both been there pacing the floor day after day waiting for the chase of the century to come in, but ended up putting the lettle on instead, along with about 40 other bored pilots who have left both north east offices.
They should have kept the Islander, at least it was paid for even if a little loud
I read the same cleveland report and came up with the same numbers but then noticed the part about the Home office paying 40% towards the purchase in the text. Its badly written or McLuckie has paid over the odds?
Props has probably been told by his source up in the ivory towers (LZ hq) that its costing Cleveland over five million this year including the £2 million a year unit running costs.
We've both been there pacing the floor day after day waiting for the chase of the century to come in, but ended up putting the lettle on instead, along with about 40 other bored pilots who have left both north east offices.
They should have kept the Islander, at least it was paid for even if a little loud
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Some interesting pdf's about NPAS and Cleveland
Just noticed the following PDF's which include articles on NPAS some may not know about. Cleveland are aware it will cost them a lot more money for such a small force with a new a/c.
16 February 2011
16 February 2011
Report of the Chief Constable to the Chair and Members
of the Strategic Air Support Panel
16th February 2011
Executive & Presenting Officer: Mr David Pickard, Assistant Chief Constable (Crime & Operations)
Status: For information
National Air Support Service Update
1.
Purpose
1.1 To update Members on the latest developments with the proposals for a National Air Support Service.
2.
Recommendations
2.1 That Members note the contents of the report.
3. Reasons
3.1 A briefing document was presented to Chief Constables Council on 15th October 2010 in respect of a National Police Air Service (NPAS) and this was supported by most Chief Constables. On the 20th October Chief Constable Marshall presented some elements of NPAS to Unit Executive Officers (UEO’s) and other representatives from every unit in the Country. At this presentation it was reported that there were six Chief Constables who expressed reservations.
3.2 Since these meetings there has been little further information available. There has been one further meeting, chaired by the NPIA, with representatives of the North East forces on 24th November. At the meeting were representatives from Newcastle, Cleveland, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Humberside.
3.3 The NPIA reported that there had been a lot of concern from many forces regarding the financial data within the paper that had been presented to Chief Constables Council. Much of the meeting was spent trying to explain how the financial assumptions had been made. It was also reported that it was now very likely that South Yorkshire would retain their helicopter, when it had originally been identified to be withdrawn.
3.4
During the meeting the NPIA requested that forces start to look at joint pilotage and maintenance contracts. It was reported that there would be no savings in the North until other aircraft had been withdrawn from the South East of the Country, or if some savings could be made from the use of joint contracts. The NPIA confirmed that we would need to pay the higher identified cost (as detailed in the paper to Chief Constables’ Council) until at least 2016.
3.5
In January ACC Pickard met with Chief Constable Marshall and was provided with a further update regarding the national picture and it was suggested there was now less opposition to the plans than there had been previously. It was also agreed that NPIA would visit Cleveland Police and go through the financial data with the Force to try and explain the position.
3.6
At present it is still believed that by joining the National Air Service, we would be paying £535,000 more than our present budget, for the first 4 or 5 years, and then £300,000 more than our present budget after that. It is also still the intention that we would operate only 20 hours per day, with cover from other forces in the North East.
3.7
This finance meeting has been arranged for the 2nd February. A further meeting involving finance representatives from all the North East forces, together with the NPIA is scheduled for the 24th February. It is understood there may be some further detail presented to Chief Constables Council in March.
3.8
The position nationally at this time is that it is understood that only two regions will be joining the National Air Support Service at the start and these are Central and the North West. Other regions have stated they cannot join at this time for a number of reasons, such as the forthcoming Olympic Games. NPIA would like to see the North East join, but this appears dependent partly on the outcome of the finance meetings.
4. Implications
4.1 Financial
There are significant financial implications arising from this report, if the current proposals, as outlined above, go ahead. There are no further financial implications arising from this report to report to Members.
4.2 Diversity and Equal Opportunities
There are no diversity or equal opportunities implications arising from this report.
4.3 Human Rights Act
There are no Human Rights Act implications arising from this report.
4.4 Sustainability
There are no sustainability implications arising from this report.
4.5 Risk
There are substantial risk implications arising from this report in connection with the financial risk, the reputation risk and also the operational cover issue.
5. Conclusions
5.1
The plans for a National Air Support Service are still being progressed and it is still the sponsor’s aim of having a fully operational national unit in place by April 2012. The aims of the scheme appear laudable and with the present financial pressures there could be the opportunity to make significant savings for the Force. However with the current understood financial proposal, this would actually significantly increase the cost to Cleveland.
Sean Price
Chief Constable
of the Strategic Air Support Panel
16th February 2011
Executive & Presenting Officer: Mr David Pickard, Assistant Chief Constable (Crime & Operations)
Status: For information
National Air Support Service Update
1.
Purpose
1.1 To update Members on the latest developments with the proposals for a National Air Support Service.
2.
Recommendations
2.1 That Members note the contents of the report.
3. Reasons
3.1 A briefing document was presented to Chief Constables Council on 15th October 2010 in respect of a National Police Air Service (NPAS) and this was supported by most Chief Constables. On the 20th October Chief Constable Marshall presented some elements of NPAS to Unit Executive Officers (UEO’s) and other representatives from every unit in the Country. At this presentation it was reported that there were six Chief Constables who expressed reservations.
3.2 Since these meetings there has been little further information available. There has been one further meeting, chaired by the NPIA, with representatives of the North East forces on 24th November. At the meeting were representatives from Newcastle, Cleveland, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Humberside.
3.3 The NPIA reported that there had been a lot of concern from many forces regarding the financial data within the paper that had been presented to Chief Constables Council. Much of the meeting was spent trying to explain how the financial assumptions had been made. It was also reported that it was now very likely that South Yorkshire would retain their helicopter, when it had originally been identified to be withdrawn.
3.4
During the meeting the NPIA requested that forces start to look at joint pilotage and maintenance contracts. It was reported that there would be no savings in the North until other aircraft had been withdrawn from the South East of the Country, or if some savings could be made from the use of joint contracts. The NPIA confirmed that we would need to pay the higher identified cost (as detailed in the paper to Chief Constables’ Council) until at least 2016.
3.5
In January ACC Pickard met with Chief Constable Marshall and was provided with a further update regarding the national picture and it was suggested there was now less opposition to the plans than there had been previously. It was also agreed that NPIA would visit Cleveland Police and go through the financial data with the Force to try and explain the position.
3.6
At present it is still believed that by joining the National Air Service, we would be paying £535,000 more than our present budget, for the first 4 or 5 years, and then £300,000 more than our present budget after that. It is also still the intention that we would operate only 20 hours per day, with cover from other forces in the North East.
3.7
This finance meeting has been arranged for the 2nd February. A further meeting involving finance representatives from all the North East forces, together with the NPIA is scheduled for the 24th February. It is understood there may be some further detail presented to Chief Constables Council in March.
3.8
The position nationally at this time is that it is understood that only two regions will be joining the National Air Support Service at the start and these are Central and the North West. Other regions have stated they cannot join at this time for a number of reasons, such as the forthcoming Olympic Games. NPIA would like to see the North East join, but this appears dependent partly on the outcome of the finance meetings.
4. Implications
4.1 Financial
There are significant financial implications arising from this report, if the current proposals, as outlined above, go ahead. There are no further financial implications arising from this report to report to Members.
4.2 Diversity and Equal Opportunities
There are no diversity or equal opportunities implications arising from this report.
4.3 Human Rights Act
There are no Human Rights Act implications arising from this report.
4.4 Sustainability
There are no sustainability implications arising from this report.
4.5 Risk
There are substantial risk implications arising from this report in connection with the financial risk, the reputation risk and also the operational cover issue.
5. Conclusions
5.1
The plans for a National Air Support Service are still being progressed and it is still the sponsor’s aim of having a fully operational national unit in place by April 2012. The aims of the scheme appear laudable and with the present financial pressures there could be the opportunity to make significant savings for the Force. However with the current understood financial proposal, this would actually significantly increase the cost to Cleveland.
Sean Price
Chief Constable
3.7
The obvious immediate benefits of the new aircraft have been the fact that it operates higher so is less intrusive to the public. It is already starting to have a bigger role in surveillance operations. The effectiveness on tasks is increased as we are able to provide better quality images. Due to our height and the quality of the camera, we are often able to see several incidents in different areas without changing our location. Over the next few months officers will become more proficient using the technology and also in the best ways to operate the aircraft, which will no doubt lead to a more effective service to the Force.
3.8
The unit had a 20% cut in the flying hours which was reported at the last meeting. We are managing to still provide a first class service to the Force, but at times have to manage demand by regular dialogue with officers present at incidents.
3.9
The revenue budget for this year is very tight as we have had a number of unexpected items to pay for. It is still expected to come in slightly over budget, but this will be covered within the carry-forward from last year which was requested for this purpose.
3.10
Appendix A details the performance statistics and flying hours. The use of the aircraft has resulted in the equivalent of 116,021 officer hours being saved across the Force during October to December. This would equate to a cost saving of approximately £794,192 compared to officers on the ground being deployed to the same incidents. However, it should be noted that by using the aircraft we are able to undertake a greater number of searches, many of which we would be unable to undertake without the helicopter.
The obvious immediate benefits of the new aircraft have been the fact that it operates higher so is less intrusive to the public. It is already starting to have a bigger role in surveillance operations. The effectiveness on tasks is increased as we are able to provide better quality images. Due to our height and the quality of the camera, we are often able to see several incidents in different areas without changing our location. Over the next few months officers will become more proficient using the technology and also in the best ways to operate the aircraft, which will no doubt lead to a more effective service to the Force.
3.8
The unit had a 20% cut in the flying hours which was reported at the last meeting. We are managing to still provide a first class service to the Force, but at times have to manage demand by regular dialogue with officers present at incidents.
3.9
The revenue budget for this year is very tight as we have had a number of unexpected items to pay for. It is still expected to come in slightly over budget, but this will be covered within the carry-forward from last year which was requested for this purpose.
3.10
Appendix A details the performance statistics and flying hours. The use of the aircraft has resulted in the equivalent of 116,021 officer hours being saved across the Force during October to December. This would equate to a cost saving of approximately £794,192 compared to officers on the ground being deployed to the same incidents. However, it should be noted that by using the aircraft we are able to undertake a greater number of searches, many of which we would be unable to undertake without the helicopter.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 28th Feb 2011 at 23:20. Reason: Add quotes from reports
A new 135P2+ costs between 5.2 and 5.6 million fully equipped dependent on whether the final cost was protected against currency fluctuations
Some forces warranted against euro fluctuations and others failed to do so.
Some forces warranted against euro fluctuations and others failed to do so.
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Cleveland Police area covers approximately 230 square miles and has a population of over 554,000.
How the hell can they justify spending all that money on a helicopter?
How the hell can they justify spending all that money on a helicopter?