IMC in an R22 - anyone done this?
Helimutt
Thank you for self-moderating your earlier post.
In regard to your most recent post when you write; "My experience is that most people, never having experienced it, want to slow down once IMC and instinctively pull aft cyclic, losing airspeed and climbing."
My assumption therefore is that you must be an IRI(H) or IRE(H) yet your public profile doesn't include this. My logic for this assumption is that the only time a civilian instructor gets to fly IMC 'legally' with other pilots to gain the experience you quote is when conducting IR training. How much IR instructional experience do you have? Are your comments based on instructing on an R22 or similar as part of the JAR syllabus in VMC/foggle conditions or is your experience based on your own reactions to the first time you flew in actual conditions?
The reason for my questioning is that I don't know you personally, or your experience, as I suspect most on the forum don't. I would like to get an idea of your background so myself and others can make a judgement call on how seriously to take your comments and advice.
My own experience of having flown non-stabilised helicopters in the UK military in actual instrument conditions as a student, line-pilot, instructor and examiner is that there is no standard reaction - other than WHEN a non-instrument experienced pilots' scan breaks down in IMC, loss of control of the aircraft is inevitable.
JJ
Thank you for self-moderating your earlier post.
In regard to your most recent post when you write; "My experience is that most people, never having experienced it, want to slow down once IMC and instinctively pull aft cyclic, losing airspeed and climbing."
My assumption therefore is that you must be an IRI(H) or IRE(H) yet your public profile doesn't include this. My logic for this assumption is that the only time a civilian instructor gets to fly IMC 'legally' with other pilots to gain the experience you quote is when conducting IR training. How much IR instructional experience do you have? Are your comments based on instructing on an R22 or similar as part of the JAR syllabus in VMC/foggle conditions or is your experience based on your own reactions to the first time you flew in actual conditions?
The reason for my questioning is that I don't know you personally, or your experience, as I suspect most on the forum don't. I would like to get an idea of your background so myself and others can make a judgement call on how seriously to take your comments and advice.
My own experience of having flown non-stabilised helicopters in the UK military in actual instrument conditions as a student, line-pilot, instructor and examiner is that there is no standard reaction - other than WHEN a non-instrument experienced pilots' scan breaks down in IMC, loss of control of the aircraft is inevitable.
JJ
Not anywhere near IRI IRE, I wish!! Maybe one day. I was an instructor a while ago but no longer. Now I fly as a lowly co-pilot in the offshore environment.
I refer to my time spent in a box where people were having a go doing what I described earlier. Those people seemed to want to slow down for some reason so pulled aft cyclic, lost speed and opened up a new can of worms. So to speak.
I can also tell you I initially did a similar thing when doing the SPIFR flight training for the s76 in a full motion sim with all SAS and AP's off. Maybe it's just me? Might just have been my reaction.
I don't profess to know anything much about Instrument flying because i'm still at the bottom of the ladder, on a very steep curve, but I do know that IMC can and does continue to kill people without proper training and fully suitable aircraft (fixed wing included but we're not dealing with that side of things here)
Take my comments generally with a pinch of salt and my advice? Well it's just that.
I knew someone very well who died not too long ago due going IMC without an IR and a good knowledge on type.
I'm just someone who is sick of hearing of needless deaths and yes, I do get wound up sometimes and tend to type before thinking. For that I apologise.
I refer to my time spent in a box where people were having a go doing what I described earlier. Those people seemed to want to slow down for some reason so pulled aft cyclic, lost speed and opened up a new can of worms. So to speak.
I can also tell you I initially did a similar thing when doing the SPIFR flight training for the s76 in a full motion sim with all SAS and AP's off. Maybe it's just me? Might just have been my reaction.
I don't profess to know anything much about Instrument flying because i'm still at the bottom of the ladder, on a very steep curve, but I do know that IMC can and does continue to kill people without proper training and fully suitable aircraft (fixed wing included but we're not dealing with that side of things here)
Take my comments generally with a pinch of salt and my advice? Well it's just that.
I knew someone very well who died not too long ago due going IMC without an IR and a good knowledge on type.
I'm just someone who is sick of hearing of needless deaths and yes, I do get wound up sometimes and tend to type before thinking. For that I apologise.
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Light Helis & IMC
For Helicfii,
Ref your post having all CPL licences ... sadly the statistics wouldn't support that situation.
Accidents due to 'Spatial dis-orientation' and 'Controlled Flight into Terrain' for the period 1975 to 2004.
Total reported accidents assessed as due to the above. 54. 100 fatalities)
Accidents with professional pilot in command. 34.
Accidents with private pilot in command. 20.
Source:
CAA review of all private and public transport accidents using CAA Mandatory Occurrence Reporting System database. MORS.
Of particular interest is the fact that CFIT and Spatial Dis-Orientation accidents for private pilots in four year moving averages as follows.
Period 1993 to 1996 ...... 02
1997 to 2000 ...... 05
2001 to 2004 ...... 08
Pretty alarming trend especially considering the introduction of the JAA mandatory five hours instrument training/appreciation .... which is why we are planning the informal 'safety evenings.
Additionally there were a further 5 accidents for all pilots in subsequent years as yet undetermined.
For the definitive reading, purchase QinetiQ's paper from the TSO No 2007/03.
See many of you on Monday evening at Redhill.
Safe flying all,
Dennis Kenyon.
Ref your post having all CPL licences ... sadly the statistics wouldn't support that situation.
Accidents due to 'Spatial dis-orientation' and 'Controlled Flight into Terrain' for the period 1975 to 2004.
Total reported accidents assessed as due to the above. 54. 100 fatalities)
Accidents with professional pilot in command. 34.
Accidents with private pilot in command. 20.
Source:
CAA review of all private and public transport accidents using CAA Mandatory Occurrence Reporting System database. MORS.
Of particular interest is the fact that CFIT and Spatial Dis-Orientation accidents for private pilots in four year moving averages as follows.
Period 1993 to 1996 ...... 02
1997 to 2000 ...... 05
2001 to 2004 ...... 08
Pretty alarming trend especially considering the introduction of the JAA mandatory five hours instrument training/appreciation .... which is why we are planning the informal 'safety evenings.
Additionally there were a further 5 accidents for all pilots in subsequent years as yet undetermined.
For the definitive reading, purchase QinetiQ's paper from the TSO No 2007/03.
See many of you on Monday evening at Redhill.
Safe flying all,
Dennis Kenyon.
Helimutt
Thanks for your last post.
DennisK
Thanks for the four-year moving average stats - pretty alarming stuff. I'm glad I'm past the 'newby' stage.
My comment on the four-year moving average is that I think it's probably less to do with the JAR 5-hour simulated instrument requirement (much as I wish we could pin it on that) but probably more due to the recent ubiquitous employment of moving-map GPS systems. Even the lowliest helicopter now has a few-hundred quids worth of GPS system somewhere in the cockpit. What this does is give the pilot, whatever their experience, extra mental capacity and therefore extra confidence. The time spent thumbing your way along a map in deteriorating weather conditions are long gone. Instead, we all know where we are, all of the time.
A few years ago, when the weather turned, it all got too difficult and flights would get knocked on the head sooner rather than later. Now, there's the temptation to follow the low ground depicted on the Skymap and press-on long after it would have been prudent to turn round.
I love GPS. I use it daily and it makes my life massively easier. I just feel a little sorry for the new-generation of pilots that know nothing else. I'm convinced GPS is indirectly responsibe for several of the recent UK fatal press-on-itis accidents.
Also, we must not forget that helicopter ownership has doubled over the past decade and that alone skews the figures to make them seem less alarming.
Aplogies for the thread creep.
JJ
Thanks for your last post.
DennisK
Thanks for the four-year moving average stats - pretty alarming stuff. I'm glad I'm past the 'newby' stage.
My comment on the four-year moving average is that I think it's probably less to do with the JAR 5-hour simulated instrument requirement (much as I wish we could pin it on that) but probably more due to the recent ubiquitous employment of moving-map GPS systems. Even the lowliest helicopter now has a few-hundred quids worth of GPS system somewhere in the cockpit. What this does is give the pilot, whatever their experience, extra mental capacity and therefore extra confidence. The time spent thumbing your way along a map in deteriorating weather conditions are long gone. Instead, we all know where we are, all of the time.
A few years ago, when the weather turned, it all got too difficult and flights would get knocked on the head sooner rather than later. Now, there's the temptation to follow the low ground depicted on the Skymap and press-on long after it would have been prudent to turn round.
I love GPS. I use it daily and it makes my life massively easier. I just feel a little sorry for the new-generation of pilots that know nothing else. I'm convinced GPS is indirectly responsibe for several of the recent UK fatal press-on-itis accidents.
Also, we must not forget that helicopter ownership has doubled over the past decade and that alone skews the figures to make them seem less alarming.
Aplogies for the thread creep.
JJ
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IMC
Interesting point JJ,
In fact thinking about it ... the latest Honeywell 'Sentinel' GPS has the usual topo features, but additionally: local height warning - clour coded for height above, at and below aircraft height. Improper use of that will really aggravate the present pressonitus problem.
Overall I tend to agree with the ;more emphasis' on training to avoid the IMC situation. As I usually tell my pilots ... its the Irishman and the bog syndrome. I won't start from that position. (with aplogies to my super mates over there!)
Take care all,
Dennis K
In fact thinking about it ... the latest Honeywell 'Sentinel' GPS has the usual topo features, but additionally: local height warning - clour coded for height above, at and below aircraft height. Improper use of that will really aggravate the present pressonitus problem.
Overall I tend to agree with the ;more emphasis' on training to avoid the IMC situation. As I usually tell my pilots ... its the Irishman and the bog syndrome. I won't start from that position. (with aplogies to my super mates over there!)
Take care all,
Dennis K
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Jellybelly said:
Definitely in my opinion. GPS has in effect offered an alternative to correct planning and certainly in more than one incident this year, there have been lives lost. The AAIB results when available may very well bear this out.
Best Wishes
I'm convinced GPS is indirectly responsibe for several of the recent UK fatal press-on-itis accidents.
Best Wishes
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Good discussion still, unfortunately wont be ale to make the safety evening tonight, looking forward to the next one.
Going back to the off airfield landings I would love to get the students to do more, unfortunately training flights need to be "licensed airfield to licensed airfield" so to show the most useful aspect of the heli i.e. if the weather turns crap land the thing I have to bend the rules !!!! surely this needs changing, apart from the fact alot of people are anti helicopter and I dont want complaints from the neighbours.
As far as the inadvertant IMC goes yes its press on itis but its all down to education. I make the point more thn once its a get you out of the crap that you definately should not be in technique.
Heres an interesting point....talking to a guy with an fixed wing IR PPL and doing his heli PPL says the heli appeals more as he would be willing to fly in worse weather in the heli than the fixed wing???!!!!
Have a good evening at redhill
Going back to the off airfield landings I would love to get the students to do more, unfortunately training flights need to be "licensed airfield to licensed airfield" so to show the most useful aspect of the heli i.e. if the weather turns crap land the thing I have to bend the rules !!!! surely this needs changing, apart from the fact alot of people are anti helicopter and I dont want complaints from the neighbours.
As far as the inadvertant IMC goes yes its press on itis but its all down to education. I make the point more thn once its a get you out of the crap that you definately should not be in technique.
Heres an interesting point....talking to a guy with an fixed wing IR PPL and doing his heli PPL says the heli appeals more as he would be willing to fly in worse weather in the heli than the fixed wing???!!!!
Have a good evening at redhill
Heres an interesting point....talking to a guy with an fixed wing IR PPL and doing his heli PPL says the heli appeals more as he would be willing to fly in worse weather in the heli than the fixed wing???!!!!
I give up!!! Tell him I personally think he's probably not a good candidate to hold a PPL(H) if he thinks like that!!!!!
Last edited by helimutt; 14th Apr 2008 at 15:24.
Period 1993 to 1996 ...... 02
1997 to 2000 ...... 05
2001 to 2004 ...... 08
1997 to 2000 ...... 05
2001 to 2004 ...... 08
I know the CAA have addressed this and have issued a statement to the contrary but I guess they would - wouldn't they?
Why not make the 5 hours optional - then the instructors that think they are a benefit can, 'put their money where their mouth is'!?
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It would be much better to teach PPLs how to land due to weather
When I did my PPL the prospect of landing anywhere unlicenced, unplanned would have had the school jumping up and down with rage. Airfields only
No wonder newbies are reluctant to land.
I dont think I landed off airfield until I started SFH.
Done a few since
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I do quite a few off airfield landings with my students, just pick a field/area, make sure there's no-one around and go for it. If someone reports you, just say you were doing "emergency training", not much the CAA can say against that. Confined areas is in the JAA syllabus, hardly anyone has ever been prosecuted over rule 5 in a heli, and how many members of the public are able to prove how close you were anyway?
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I use to teach confined areas off airports as long as you dont break the 500ft rule and you dont actualy land (Stick the machine on the deck) your not breaking the 500ft rule, 500ft rule in the UK applies to slant range of course, just start & finnish your lesson at the airport.
