CAA Looking at Lease flying.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
CAA Looking at banning Lease flying.
I hear that the CAA have been razzed up by one or two AOC,s regarding lease agreements. It appears some of them want to chop in their certificates and just fly regular customers privately and dump casual one off charters. They will , of course have to get rid of all their pilots to do this and i imagine change their names so as not to give the impression of doing charters. This should be very interesting as it would mean that all corporate leased aircraft would have to go into an AOC and would therefore have to be on the G. All corporate pilots would then have to comply with all the paperwork ....base and line checks, dunker, haszardous materials, first aid, and be under 60 yrs old . I imagine that all the flying clubs would have to close down and sell their aircraft due to this . ( if you lease the club plane to go abroad and take a safety pilot and in bad weather get him to fly home that would then be PT and not self fly. )
Lease of aircraft and use of freelance pilots has been the legal and preferred route for hundreds of companies from all over the world and has been going on , legally and undisturbed since the wright brothers !! The effects of effectively banning all flying , other than self fly, would be catastrophic to the Industry leaving all flying in the hands of a very diminished small bunch of AOC,s with huge overheads and unecessary and unworkable rules.
I think the AOC boys should stop worrying about something that works well, has been around for at least as long as them and just as safely and concentrate on the ppl,s selling their services.
Should be fun watching them all protecting their interests
ps see you at silverstone
Lease of aircraft and use of freelance pilots has been the legal and preferred route for hundreds of companies from all over the world and has been going on , legally and undisturbed since the wright brothers !! The effects of effectively banning all flying , other than self fly, would be catastrophic to the Industry leaving all flying in the hands of a very diminished small bunch of AOC,s with huge overheads and unecessary and unworkable rules.
I think the AOC boys should stop worrying about something that works well, has been around for at least as long as them and just as safely and concentrate on the ppl,s selling their services.
Should be fun watching them all protecting their interests
ps see you at silverstone
Last edited by nigelh; 30th March 2008 at 23:50.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: england
lease fly/ aoc
The fact that this topic is even being discussed suggests that "something needs to be done".
Why should the same helicopter on the same day with the same pilot and the same passengers be legal and safe to go into one site privately but illegal on AOC?
London Docklands is just one example.
My view is that the legislation should be brought into line with the reality of the flying world, rather that trying to make the real world conform to a world of red tape.
The hoop-jumping simply invites clever brains to come up with ways around the problems.
Big Ls
Why should the same helicopter on the same day with the same pilot and the same passengers be legal and safe to go into one site privately but illegal on AOC?
London Docklands is just one example.
My view is that the legislation should be brought into line with the reality of the flying world, rather that trying to make the real world conform to a world of red tape.
The hoop-jumping simply invites clever brains to come up with ways around the problems.
Big Ls
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From: uk
I think the whole way helis are operated should be looked at I know we have to protect the genaral public and fly them as safe as possible, but more and more people who fly on a regular basis try to make the flying private cat so they have more freedom. I think it would be wise to relax some of the AOC rules and make some of the private ones tougher just so we can all do more flying and try to stop low time PPL's flying into hills.
Joined: May 2001
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From: Escrick York england
CRAZYBROADSWORD
do you have evidence of more ppl pilots flying into hills than cpls?
and make some of the private ones tougher just so we can all do more flying and try to stop low time PPL's flying into hills
Joined: May 2001
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From: Escrick York england
vital actions
that was not what i asked i didnt mention AOC opps
just that if anyone had any evidence of a breakdown of stats of ppl/cpl flying into hills
Looking at the accident reports most heli accidents are either PPLs or private jobs/private owners. Hardly any AOC accidents.
that was not what i asked i didnt mention AOC opps
just that if anyone had any evidence of a breakdown of stats of ppl/cpl flying into hills
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: uk
No I am afraid I dont have any numbers for my point is that in the last ten years or so the type of people doing their ppl has changed from guys and girls looking for a new career to middle aged peeps looking for something new to do.
I am not knocking these people some of them are very good pilots but the attitude has changed away from the profesional toward the recreational and I think that the rules may need to be changed in order to keep these people safe.
I think a lot of it would be solved by more supervision in their first few years of flying, and a lot of these guys do use safety pilots which is great but if the CAA were to change the rules on leasing and these guys no longer take safety pilots I think without better supervision we will get more accidents.
I am not knocking these people some of them are very good pilots but the attitude has changed away from the profesional toward the recreational and I think that the rules may need to be changed in order to keep these people safe.
I think a lot of it would be solved by more supervision in their first few years of flying, and a lot of these guys do use safety pilots which is great but if the CAA were to change the rules on leasing and these guys no longer take safety pilots I think without better supervision we will get more accidents.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: London, UK
I am not knocking these people some of them are very good pilots but the attitude has changed away from the profesional toward the recreational and I think that the rules may need to be changed in order to keep these people safe.
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From: Warwick
Well it didn't take long for this to fall into the old "ppl's are highly dangerous" debate did it... didn't even start out like that! Hate to play devils advocate but the CAA do not sit around handing out PPLs willy nilly - people have to be trained to get them; and the people responsible for this training: The CPL/ATPL's.
I know that my training was first rate and I believe that I am capable of making sound decisions but by no means have I finished learning - luckily I am surrounded by highly regarded CPL/ATPL FIs. While I appreciate not everyone will think like me, I do believe in large part that ones attitude towards flying/safety is engendered from those who instruct. It is all too easy to assume that because PPLs appear in more accident reports the standard of airmanship is lower.
Oh, and I am neither a "peep with a mid life crisis" nor someone looking for a career in aviation.
Now, back to the subject of AOCs... it does strike me from the people I come across who have spent a lot of time in the industry that running an AOC is a very cumbersome and seemingly overly complex operation which could be simplified in order to improve safety and ensure that competition is on a level playing field.
Now a question: how do rotary operators in other countries within the EU manage AOC / leasing? I ask because in the road transport world one of the objectives of the licencing arrangements (which are nearly as complex!) is to ensure free and fair competition across the EU.
I know that my training was first rate and I believe that I am capable of making sound decisions but by no means have I finished learning - luckily I am surrounded by highly regarded CPL/ATPL FIs. While I appreciate not everyone will think like me, I do believe in large part that ones attitude towards flying/safety is engendered from those who instruct. It is all too easy to assume that because PPLs appear in more accident reports the standard of airmanship is lower.
Oh, and I am neither a "peep with a mid life crisis" nor someone looking for a career in aviation.
Now, back to the subject of AOCs... it does strike me from the people I come across who have spent a lot of time in the industry that running an AOC is a very cumbersome and seemingly overly complex operation which could be simplified in order to improve safety and ensure that competition is on a level playing field.
Now a question: how do rotary operators in other countries within the EU manage AOC / leasing? I ask because in the road transport world one of the objectives of the licencing arrangements (which are nearly as complex!) is to ensure free and fair competition across the EU.
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From: OS SX2063
Gents
I am currently working on the fatal stats and will report back on this tread shortly with figures for CPL vs ATPL vs PPL accidents that were not caused by a mechanical defect or unforeseeable weather I will include supporting evidence.
I do not know which way it will come out, and the figures will not be biased in anyway ( by me anyway)
Sorry for the thread creep but I do believe its a valid question.
Also I think that this thread is related to leasing aircraft and pilots which are operated in a 'similar way' to AOC aircraft (moving passengers around), and not the kind of lease implied by self fly hire, am I correct or do I need to learn to read (probably), I guess only Nigelh can clear that up, its his thread.
Gary
I am currently working on the fatal stats and will report back on this tread shortly with figures for CPL vs ATPL vs PPL accidents that were not caused by a mechanical defect or unforeseeable weather I will include supporting evidence.
I do not know which way it will come out, and the figures will not be biased in anyway ( by me anyway)
Sorry for the thread creep but I do believe its a valid question.
Also I think that this thread is related to leasing aircraft and pilots which are operated in a 'similar way' to AOC aircraft (moving passengers around), and not the kind of lease implied by self fly hire, am I correct or do I need to learn to read (probably), I guess only Nigelh can clear that up, its his thread.
Gary
Last edited by VeeAny; 31st March 2008 at 22:18. Reason: Clarification
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
The only people who can afford to drop £16,000 on a PPL in the UK are rich mid-life crisis types or (semi) retired types. Everyone else goes abroad and pays half.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Not managed to settle yet
Gary
Just to add a little twist to things, could you also include in your stats the number of ppl's that crashed (or bent some hardware) with an FI (professional - read cpl) on board?
I too am neither a mid-life crisis type or semi retired. I am however a ppl who always wanted to fly helicopters as a young chap and have now got the bit of paper that allows me to do that. Yes, I am still learning, but it's the same for everyone - everyday is a school day.
I agree with the comment made by nigelh that ppl's should not be selling there services, but how many are actually doing that? Nigel, care to answer?
Just to add a little twist to things, could you also include in your stats the number of ppl's that crashed (or bent some hardware) with an FI (professional - read cpl) on board?
I too am neither a mid-life crisis type or semi retired. I am however a ppl who always wanted to fly helicopters as a young chap and have now got the bit of paper that allows me to do that. Yes, I am still learning, but it's the same for everyone - everyday is a school day.
I agree with the comment made by nigelh that ppl's should not be selling there services, but how many are actually doing that? Nigel, care to answer?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
I am not sure how many ppl,s are doing work ...not many i would guess and then only with friends. ( which you could never prove ).
Some of the constraints are for instance ...i can fly you into Battersea on pvt but it would be illegal on an aoc ....same goes for Vanguard , same goes for the average medium sized garden , same goes for at night etc etc
It will be impossible to stop lease flying as , as someone said earlier , there will always be ways around it ...just like tax !! What the CAA should do is take away the huge reasons for NOT wanting to have an AOC. Just make it sensible .....even half sensible would be a start . If they do attack lease flying it will be the clubs and flying schools that will be hit hardest......i will then be doing fractional ownership
ps can anyone tell me if there is any difference between a lease or aoc flight if the heli and pilot are both the same ....? Yes , just a bundle of paperwork !!!
Some of the constraints are for instance ...i can fly you into Battersea on pvt but it would be illegal on an aoc ....same goes for Vanguard , same goes for the average medium sized garden , same goes for at night etc etc
It will be impossible to stop lease flying as , as someone said earlier , there will always be ways around it ...just like tax !! What the CAA should do is take away the huge reasons for NOT wanting to have an AOC. Just make it sensible .....even half sensible would be a start . If they do attack lease flying it will be the clubs and flying schools that will be hit hardest......i will then be doing fractional ownership
ps can anyone tell me if there is any difference between a lease or aoc flight if the heli and pilot are both the same ....? Yes , just a bundle of paperwork !!!
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Aoc/ppl/cpl/age
Hi Gary & all,
You will know I'm working on some accident stats for a LOOP piece. The age discrimination piece comes out in the April issue.
Have down loaded the mass of accident info you have so far produced. It is proving a veritable mine of relevent facts. But .. when you produce the PPL/CPL/ATPL figs for CFIT for Steve A and the general accidents .. is it possible to produce a further breakdown on age and flying hours? I need the 'over 60' particularly figs, but even better - a general 'age related' graph would be perfect for my purpose.
See you on the 14th at Redhill perhaps.
Take care all.
Dennis Kenyon.
You will know I'm working on some accident stats for a LOOP piece. The age discrimination piece comes out in the April issue.
Have down loaded the mass of accident info you have so far produced. It is proving a veritable mine of relevent facts. But .. when you produce the PPL/CPL/ATPL figs for CFIT for Steve A and the general accidents .. is it possible to produce a further breakdown on age and flying hours? I need the 'over 60' particularly figs, but even better - a general 'age related' graph would be perfect for my purpose.
See you on the 14th at Redhill perhaps.
Take care all.
Dennis Kenyon.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Gold Coast, Australia
Originally Posted by nigelh
Lease of aircraft and use of freelance pilots has been the legal and preferred route for hundreds of companies from all over the world
I'm pleased to say
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: uk
I am trying to avoid thread creep honest.
I was not trying to knock PPL's at all when they pass their skills test they are all very capable and confident pilots, but a lot of guys I know sometimes go a long time between flights so being able to have someone along with them till they get back up to speed is very useful.
Indeed many of my ex students will come back and do a few auto's between LPC's just to stay currant but some times they need to fly somewhere and don't have the time to play before hand, so taking a safety pilot just makes sense.
I was not trying to knock PPL's at all when they pass their skills test they are all very capable and confident pilots, but a lot of guys I know sometimes go a long time between flights so being able to have someone along with them till they get back up to speed is very useful.
Indeed many of my ex students will come back and do a few auto's between LPC's just to stay currant but some times they need to fly somewhere and don't have the time to play before hand, so taking a safety pilot just makes sense.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: england
nigelh
ps can anyone tell me if there is any difference between a lease or aoc flight if the heli and pilot are both the same ....? Yes , just a bundle of paperwork !!!
we agree entirely!
it's plane (sic) daft.
we agree entirely!
it's plane (sic) daft.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 228
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From: London, UK
As this thread has been well and truly hijacked, i'll continue this 7500 operation without shame. All statistics below are fabricated. No need for replies, just food for thought.
If one looks at the ABCD accident statistics and finds that over the last 10 years, there have been 80 accidents in red helicopters and 20 accidents in yellow helicopters, what have you discovered?
If you then go to some other data source (?) and find that in that period red helicopters have flown for 8000 hours, and yellow ones 1700 hours... and that's was composed of 16000 red flights, but 4300 yellow flights, what does that mean?
And let's say there are twice the fatalities east of W001 for 9 years, except 1 year where it reverses because one accident reverses this. And half the red ones turn out to be magenta on closer inspection, and the accident rate quarters in magenta, but all are fatal.
An example of what can happen when there's confusion over probability and statistics:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20.../17/NHS.health
If one looks at the ABCD accident statistics and finds that over the last 10 years, there have been 80 accidents in red helicopters and 20 accidents in yellow helicopters, what have you discovered?
If you then go to some other data source (?) and find that in that period red helicopters have flown for 8000 hours, and yellow ones 1700 hours... and that's was composed of 16000 red flights, but 4300 yellow flights, what does that mean?
And let's say there are twice the fatalities east of W001 for 9 years, except 1 year where it reverses because one accident reverses this. And half the red ones turn out to be magenta on closer inspection, and the accident rate quarters in magenta, but all are fatal.
An example of what can happen when there's confusion over probability and statistics:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20.../17/NHS.health
