Bell 407 versus bell 427 versus Bell 430??
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Bell 407 versus bell 427 versus Bell 430??
I'm curious.
I don't know where to find the figures on the Internet, but I think I'm right in saying there are an awful lot of Bell 407's floating around the world.
I imagine it was a huge sale success for Bell.
So,how come the 427 and the 430 kind of tanked?
Did Bell not research the market properly? That extra engine... customers didn't want it? Glass cockpit.... too many expensive bells and whistles?
I've never met anybody raving about the 427 or the 430. But I have heard many, many sarcastic jeers.
Anybody know more about this?
I don't know where to find the figures on the Internet, but I think I'm right in saying there are an awful lot of Bell 407's floating around the world.
I imagine it was a huge sale success for Bell.
So,how come the 427 and the 430 kind of tanked?
Did Bell not research the market properly? That extra engine... customers didn't want it? Glass cockpit.... too many expensive bells and whistles?
I've never met anybody raving about the 427 or the 430. But I have heard many, many sarcastic jeers.
Anybody know more about this?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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the 427 seems to me to have been almost an afterthought to the 407 instead of being designed specifically to meet market demand. slapping two engines onto what is essentially a 407 airframe musn't have been what most twin operators were looking for, hence the 429 with a redesigned airframe. the 427 reminds me of the 206LT, in that its a proven airframe with a f'n ugly engine compartment thrown on top...
this is all just my speculation, i don't really have experience with either of the twins, maybe someone else can be more insightful...
this is all just my speculation, i don't really have experience with either of the twins, maybe someone else can be more insightful...
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When Bell told customers that if they signed up for a 427 they would get in 2 years max, it took about 5 for the first ones to come up, that is how we got the first A109 Powers around here, most people who signed up for the 427 ended up telling Bell "I want my money back" and with Agusta.
Now the Bell 430 has silly performance at altitude, and it's expensive.
But my beloved 407 can carry 5 off our rooftop helipad at 8100 Feet for an hours flight, it takes practically the same load for 2.2 millon USD that the 5 millon Agusta 109E does. It's relatively fast, cheap to operate, dependable, and a blast to fly!!
Now the Bell 430 has silly performance at altitude, and it's expensive.
But my beloved 407 can carry 5 off our rooftop helipad at 8100 Feet for an hours flight, it takes practically the same load for 2.2 millon USD that the 5 millon Agusta 109E does. It's relatively fast, cheap to operate, dependable, and a blast to fly!!
It doesn't take the 109 to beat the 407, the 119 does it hands low, and now AgustaWestland is coming out with the A119Ke with a MGW up to 6284lbs.
New blades shall cut the useful load increase to about 160lbs, but the cruise IAS shall be about 6 or 7 knots faster.
Bell missed the bus big times with the 427, too small a cabin for EMS, no SPIFR certification in the US. That second engine cut down payload too for Gulf of Mexico operations.
The 407 is the last decent product to come out of Mirabel, too bad they stopped thinking behind the passengers cabin.
In the GoM I had to drop two passengers to accomodate for the bags strapped and secured on the aft facing seats.
The 430 is (was?) quagmired by two underpowered engines, and Bell never offered an alternative to the C40s.
Last but not least, Bell's politics in the LUH competition showed their real design capability limitations.
New blades shall cut the useful load increase to about 160lbs, but the cruise IAS shall be about 6 or 7 knots faster.
Bell missed the bus big times with the 427, too small a cabin for EMS, no SPIFR certification in the US. That second engine cut down payload too for Gulf of Mexico operations.
The 407 is the last decent product to come out of Mirabel, too bad they stopped thinking behind the passengers cabin.
In the GoM I had to drop two passengers to accomodate for the bags strapped and secured on the aft facing seats.
The 430 is (was?) quagmired by two underpowered engines, and Bell never offered an alternative to the C40s.
Last but not least, Bell's politics in the LUH competition showed their real design capability limitations.
"the 427 seems to me to have been almost an afterthought to the 407 instead of being designed specifically to meet market demand. slapping two engines onto what is essentially a 407 airframe"
I guess you have never seen a 427 up close
. Cabin similarities between 427/407 are non existent 
I guess you have never seen a 427 up close
. Cabin similarities between 427/407 are non existent
Join Date: Jan 2006
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encyclo you're right, i never have seen one up close, in fact i'm not even sure if there's one in the country.
like i say, i don't know much about them, but that's just how it seemed to me. i stand corrected.
like i say, i don't know much about them, but that's just how it seemed to me. i stand corrected.
That's OK Somepich,
If you are in Canada, as your title suggest, there are two; one in Totonto, VIP machine and one in Halifax, VIP/Utility.
The structural design is great with essentially one carbon floof panel + two side fuselage carbon panels and one roof carbon panel with the eng and MGB attach structure on the outside to give max headroom. Very low parts count. One of the issues is the interior dimensions that ALMOST allow you to put in a stretcher
There still is a company that uses their fleet for EMS work in Europe.
If you are in Canada, as your title suggest, there are two; one in Totonto, VIP machine and one in Halifax, VIP/Utility.
The structural design is great with essentially one carbon floof panel + two side fuselage carbon panels and one roof carbon panel with the eng and MGB attach structure on the outside to give max headroom. Very low parts count. One of the issues is the interior dimensions that ALMOST allow you to put in a stretcher
There still is a company that uses their fleet for EMS work in Europe.
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Chevron 427's
Chevron are operating a few 427's in the GOM. Not sure if they have any 430's there. And in Africa they have 427's and 430's.
I've seen them up close, and crawled all over them. Attractive looking birds.
The 430 was designed as SPIFR. It has a very large rear cabin, plenty for a stretcher I would have thought. But the complaint I heard there was that you could load all kinds of pax in a 430, but you couldn't carry their baggage.
Not enough space there, relative to no of pax.
I'm guessing... that the problems with slow delivery times were fatal. Faced with stiff competition, customers voted with their feet. Pity. There was potential there.
I loved the 407. A pilot's dream. Only problem is, after several 1000's of hours in a Longranger, I spent the first 50 hours, with 5-6 pax on a hot day, no wind, just "milking that puppy" "easy-easy-easy" over the deck edge on take-off. Then, as you snatch a hurried glance at the torque, expecting to see that you are using ALL the horses, you find yourself staring at "67%" or something silly. Took me a while to learn just how much "Oomph!" was available to me if I was just willing to pull it.
I did fly the Koala, briefly. Very, very nice. Noticeable vibration (noisy) when you slow down through translational, more so than on other designs? But a superb toy.
Just hope I never have to go out and get a real job. You know, where you hate everything you do, and you're just in it for $$$.
Mind, I know some pilots like that.
It would be interesting to hear from any 427 or 430 drivers out there.
I've seen them up close, and crawled all over them. Attractive looking birds.
The 430 was designed as SPIFR. It has a very large rear cabin, plenty for a stretcher I would have thought. But the complaint I heard there was that you could load all kinds of pax in a 430, but you couldn't carry their baggage.
Not enough space there, relative to no of pax.
I'm guessing... that the problems with slow delivery times were fatal. Faced with stiff competition, customers voted with their feet. Pity. There was potential there.
I loved the 407. A pilot's dream. Only problem is, after several 1000's of hours in a Longranger, I spent the first 50 hours, with 5-6 pax on a hot day, no wind, just "milking that puppy" "easy-easy-easy" over the deck edge on take-off. Then, as you snatch a hurried glance at the torque, expecting to see that you are using ALL the horses, you find yourself staring at "67%" or something silly. Took me a while to learn just how much "Oomph!" was available to me if I was just willing to pull it.
I did fly the Koala, briefly. Very, very nice. Noticeable vibration (noisy) when you slow down through translational, more so than on other designs? But a superb toy.
Just hope I never have to go out and get a real job. You know, where you hate everything you do, and you're just in it for $$$.
Mind, I know some pilots like that.
It would be interesting to hear from any 427 or 430 drivers out there.
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Czech, not Poland
Tottigol, the Czechs are using the Bell 427. Polish EMS service just chose the EC135. To my knowledge, the Bell wasn't even participating in the competition. The EC135 was chose over the Agusta A109S, mostly because the 109S cabin have insufficient height to perform CPR and here EMS helicopters are used like ambulances with full medical service.
I never worked with Bell machines and wished I did.
Took damn near several years before the 427 was IFR configured. And still didnt clinch any real sales barring White Eagle Aviation in Poland, and as Alfa Helikopter in Czech and Shim-ir in Israel or whatever its called.
I have seen the Chevron 430 with skids and blue and slight red paint job.
The 427 has in effect morphed into the 429.
The 407 is a great machine, dont know what happened with the 417?
Guess the 407 was toooooooooo popular
430 was an strange one ...maybe they should have kept the 222 production going and not gone to 230....dont know.
Took damn near several years before the 427 was IFR configured. And still didnt clinch any real sales barring White Eagle Aviation in Poland, and as Alfa Helikopter in Czech and Shim-ir in Israel or whatever its called.
I have seen the Chevron 430 with skids and blue and slight red paint job.
The 427 has in effect morphed into the 429.
The 407 is a great machine, dont know what happened with the 417?
Guess the 407 was toooooooooo popular
430 was an strange one ...maybe they should have kept the 222 production going and not gone to 230....dont know.
430
I flew the 430 for a couple of years and and in a VIP config for 5/6 pax it is superb. Its definately the smoothest, fastest and quietest (internally) chopper I have ever flown. Not bad looking either 
HOWEVER.... if you have to fly it in a non luxury config, ie 8 pax with crew, it definately does NOT do what it say's on the tin, has no indurance and is pretty gutless 
HOWEVER.... if you have to fly it in a non luxury config, ie 8 pax with crew, it definately does NOT do what it say's on the tin, has no indurance and is pretty gutless
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The problems with the 427 were essentially that it was too expensive for what you got in comparison with other helicopters with basically the same engines. 427 was VFR and not Category A right away. It needed a second hydraulic system to be IFR, and had no AFCS in the basic ship, when the A109 was single pilot IFR, full autopilot, Category A capable out of the box and 20 knots faster for not much more money. Most people in N. America didn't need the second engine, and those in Europe who wanted / needed two engines also needed IFR and Category A.
The 430 suffered significantly by not having any training mode for training Category A. One of things most people don't realize with the new FADEC engines is that when you use 30 second and 2 minute OEI ratings, you can't use them when training, and a training mode work-around is needed. This killed any operational use of the machines in the UK (and probably the rest of Europe) stone dead. The other thing that didn't endear to the North American EMS market was the hover performance. At least one EMS operator wanted to use the machines, but said that the 222 out-performed the machine in any kind of elevation and temperature significantly. Range wasn't great, especially with wheels.
I'm very hopeful for the 429 - lot of work to make it right. And I hope Nick's assistance will help with things as well!
The 430 suffered significantly by not having any training mode for training Category A. One of things most people don't realize with the new FADEC engines is that when you use 30 second and 2 minute OEI ratings, you can't use them when training, and a training mode work-around is needed. This killed any operational use of the machines in the UK (and probably the rest of Europe) stone dead. The other thing that didn't endear to the North American EMS market was the hover performance. At least one EMS operator wanted to use the machines, but said that the 222 out-performed the machine in any kind of elevation and temperature significantly. Range wasn't great, especially with wheels.
I'm very hopeful for the 429 - lot of work to make it right. And I hope Nick's assistance will help with things as well!
