Crash near Harrogate, UK: January 2008
Yes I see your point and agree the helicopter experience was low regardless of type, although you would have thought with 700+ hours fixed wing with a CPL (A) you might expect for a level of airmanship..
There is definately a story around the helicopter IMO with regard to his route into this machine and the relationships between the pilot and other parties involved I think it would be interesting to see if that had bearing on the other inconsistancies in so far as things either becoming matey or other incentives.
There is definately a story around the helicopter IMO with regard to his route into this machine and the relationships between the pilot and other parties involved I think it would be interesting to see if that had bearing on the other inconsistancies in so far as things either becoming matey or other incentives.
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Having watched Ian King on that video, I think it would be a terrible shame to lose all his experience and ability.
Nevertheless, it is a problem to restrain the wealthy pilot with a new toy, who simply does not have the experience and sense required to fly safely. As shown by Mr. Spencer's flight track in the AAIB report, when he takes off with his wife and does some low flying over the shopping centre to impress the rest of the family.
Student pilots who kill themselves and family members then reflect on the training he received from his instructor; any shortcoming, failure to complete every exercise, any funny business with the paperwork, comes back to possibly ruin the career of a good instructor, who might have learned from this and recovered.
Long ago, I took my power logbooks, UK PPL, and gliding logbook to prove qualification for a US license to the GADO (General Aviation District Office) in Orlando, Florida. The nice official took a quick look at the documentation, and promptly entered me into the FAA records, and handed me the US license.....but then said, hang on a second, lets have another look at that power logbook. He realised I had only 22 hours power! Not enough, and the USA does not recognise a gliding Silver Certificate.
Not wishing to go to the hassle of withdrdawing the FAA certificate, he ALTERED THE HOURS IN MY LOGBOOK!!!!! nice guy. He said "They wouldn't rent you a plane without a check ride anyhow, so I know you'll be OK........" I was too ignorant to realise that this was improper.
Nevertheless, it is a problem to restrain the wealthy pilot with a new toy, who simply does not have the experience and sense required to fly safely. As shown by Mr. Spencer's flight track in the AAIB report, when he takes off with his wife and does some low flying over the shopping centre to impress the rest of the family.
Student pilots who kill themselves and family members then reflect on the training he received from his instructor; any shortcoming, failure to complete every exercise, any funny business with the paperwork, comes back to possibly ruin the career of a good instructor, who might have learned from this and recovered.
Long ago, I took my power logbooks, UK PPL, and gliding logbook to prove qualification for a US license to the GADO (General Aviation District Office) in Orlando, Florida. The nice official took a quick look at the documentation, and promptly entered me into the FAA records, and handed me the US license.....but then said, hang on a second, lets have another look at that power logbook. He realised I had only 22 hours power! Not enough, and the USA does not recognise a gliding Silver Certificate.
Not wishing to go to the hassle of withdrdawing the FAA certificate, he ALTERED THE HOURS IN MY LOGBOOK!!!!! nice guy. He said "They wouldn't rent you a plane without a check ride anyhow, so I know you'll be OK........" I was too ignorant to realise that this was improper.
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I fly my RW mostly IFR and concur with Hummingfrog; cyclic dictates speed (until the point where your run out of power, obviously).
Having about 500 hrs on stiff wings and a couple of thousand on the fling wing variety, my understanding is that with both systems you would go for the best glide speed/autorotation speed, which involves doing something with the pitch control.
Where the helicopter pilot needs to drop the collective ASAP to maintain Nr, the FW pilot may need to feather a prop, but in pitch control the need to set up for best range or min RoD would be similar. Flying at cruise speed, both would need to reduce speed, which means a pitch up or at least wait with pitch down, or am I mistaken?
Having about 500 hrs on stiff wings and a couple of thousand on the fling wing variety, my understanding is that with both systems you would go for the best glide speed/autorotation speed, which involves doing something with the pitch control.
Where the helicopter pilot needs to drop the collective ASAP to maintain Nr, the FW pilot may need to feather a prop, but in pitch control the need to set up for best range or min RoD would be similar. Flying at cruise speed, both would need to reduce speed, which means a pitch up or at least wait with pitch down, or am I mistaken?
Mary M
You have already said you haven't flown a helicopter so if I were you I would stop digging yourself into a bigger hole of ignorance
In a helicopter when the power fails you do enter autorotation and it has a target speed - usually for least rate of descent - so from say a 135Kt cruise (365N2) you would select the attitude for 75Kt. In a fixed wing glide when the power fails you enter a glide and it has a target speed - usually for least rate of descent - so from say a 130Kt cruise (Grob Tutor) you would select the attitude for 75Kt. In each case you bring the stick back to alter the attitude.
So the ONLY difference is the landing where a helicopter can flare to 0 groundspeed but a fixed wing is limited by its full flap stalling speed. In either case if you hold the stick right back before you reach the ground you will crash. In both cases going tail first into the ground
Hillberg
Oh how I laughed - I won't embarrass you with how many hours I have on both rotary and fixed wing (ex RAF) but it is more than a few and I can remember that once hovering had been mastered then all the skills I had learnt on the fixed wing part of the course came into play.
HF
You have already said you haven't flown a helicopter so if I were you I would stop digging yourself into a bigger hole of ignorance
I was especially interested to observe the maneuver which I understand is used when the donkey (Lycoming?) goes quiet, is that called an autorotation?
And if the donkey goes quiet, that is an emergency, yes? so stick held back? (as in the Air France Airbus cockpit) We plank drivers, if it all goes quiet, usually have a reasonable chance of gliding down to a safe arrival, if we remember NOT to hold the stick back.
And if the donkey goes quiet, that is an emergency, yes? so stick held back? (as in the Air France Airbus cockpit) We plank drivers, if it all goes quiet, usually have a reasonable chance of gliding down to a safe arrival, if we remember NOT to hold the stick back.
So the ONLY difference is the landing where a helicopter can flare to 0 groundspeed but a fixed wing is limited by its full flap stalling speed. In either case if you hold the stick right back before you reach the ground you will crash. In both cases going tail first into the ground
Hillberg
Hummingfrog? Helicopters fly like helicopters, You sound like a sim flyer.
HF
Sim Flyer!
Hi Al
Yes as you know I've flown one or two sims
though not had the pleasure of the Microsoft version that a lot on this forum have as their only flying experience
When such inaccurate statements as
are written If you are below your glide/autorotation speed you push forward, if above you pull back - simple attitude control
HF
Yes as you know I've flown one or two sims
though not had the pleasure of the Microsoft version that a lot on this forum have as their only flying experience When such inaccurate statements as
The difference between flying a plank and a helicopter is that years of training/habit becomes instinctive - and potentially lethal when an instant reaction is called for. If the engine on a plank fails, you push the stick forward. If the engine on a helicopter fails, you pull the cyclic back.
If you are below your glide/autorotation speed you push forward, if above you pull back - simple attitude controlHF
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Thank you, Hummingfrog, for your kind words. If you are an instructor, perhaps you could take me up some day and improve my understanding of the art of rotary wing flying.
Best regards.
Best regards.
Hello Mary M
I may have been a little harsh but there is more and more ill informed comment on this site from people whose link with professional flying is at best tenuous
I would love to have been able to take you up and show you the joys of rotary flying, I might even have let you have a go as I sometimes allowed my co-pilot to touch the controls, but I have now retired from the North Sea and the only flying I do now is fixed wing. In over 40yrs of flying rotary/fixed wing I have never found that I couldn't remember which type I was in
HF
I may have been a little harsh but there is more and more ill informed comment on this site from people whose link with professional flying is at best tenuous
I would love to have been able to take you up and show you the joys of rotary flying, I might even have let you have a go as I sometimes allowed my co-pilot to touch the controls
, but I have now retired from the North Sea and the only flying I do now is fixed wing. In over 40yrs of flying rotary/fixed wing I have never found that I couldn't remember which type I was inHF
Last edited by Hummingfrog; 11th Jan 2013 at 15:43.
