Flying Pumas

[heli1]

I hear that the RAF may revise its Puma training after concerns that the narrow undercarriage is causing roll overs far too frequently .Any pilots with Puma experience can confirm that and any other handling problems ?

[bolkow]

I am not a Puma pilot but I have heard of that particular tendency with them, I first noticed instances of this happening with Bristows or Bond, they use them extensively in the North Sea and it has been an issue in that they have had wheels go airborne after landing if not taxying quite carefully. Its noticable that the beam is very narrow on those aircraft, very much so if yoyu compare it with a S61.

[Tail-take-off]

At Bristows we used to taxi the S61 with the stick laterally neutral but it was noticeable how much lateral tilt the super-puma pilots were using.

[OverTq]

With 3000hrs + on Pumas - I only know of one roll over, and that was on take-off to the hover (wrong pedal, I believe). There is a tendency to lift the inside wheel if cornering tightly and too fast - inside cyclic stops that and has been taught to Puma studes for donkey's years.

[FredFri]

At Bristows we used to taxi the S61 with the stick laterally neutral but it was noticeable how much lateral tilt the super-puma pilots were using

Totally agree, it really depends on the type of undercarriage.

I don't know the S61, but I have flown 330's and 332's : you (almost) don't need any lateral input with the 330 whereas you definitely have to put some with a 332.

Since the RAF operates 330's, I am surprised they have "frequent" roll-overs.
I have flown 330's for 15 years and I only recall 2 near-misses (one due to ice on the apron).

[Hippolite]

I think there was a rollover on taxying in Aberdeen in around 1996 to a Bristow aircraft (G-TIGT) if I remember going onto stand 1 in their ramp area?

There was also a rollover on the helideck of the West Navion Drillship caused by the vessel's DP system failing in around 2003 (although the aircraft was not moving)

[Variable Load]

There was also a Bond AS332L that rolled onto it's side at Aberdeen when it was being towed in strong winds. So it doesn't need too much force to topple one of these machines!!

[JimL]

See if HC can be tempted into this discussion; he might be able to provide a rounded evaluation of this issue.

There have been a number of roll-overs: some due to environmental conditions; and others due to mechanical forces. In the latter case, the limits of operability are well know and are emphasized during training sessions. The limits are reached on too many sorties - a fact known because of the routine collection of operational data.

Jim

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I hear that the RAF may revise its Puma training after concerns that the narrow undercarriage is causing roll overs far too frequently .Any pilots with Puma experience can confirm that and any other handling problems ?

No we're not. Where did you hear that from?

There is a tendency to lift the inside wheel if cornering tightly and too fast

and especially if the wind is blowing from the into turn direction, however

- inside cyclic stops that and has been taught to Puma studes for donkey's years.

and we still teach it now.

Since the RAF operates 330's, I am surprised they have "frequent" roll-overs.

You and me both, because we don't!

[ShyTorque]

Quote:
- inside cyclic stops that and has been taught to Puma studes for donkey's years.

and we still teach it now.

The Puma was the first aircraft I flew operationally. Having been taught to use in-turn cyclic whilst ground taxying I still do it on every other wheeled aircraft I fly, just comes naturally to do it.

It did cause some puzzled laughter when I went back to fixed wing and used in-turn aileron on the ground

The only taxying roll-over I know of occurred nearly thirty years ago on a first solo on type.

[BedakSrewet]

There have been several Puma ( SA330 series ) roll -over cases since commencing service in the early seventies, of which the first one occurred in Sumatra / Indonesia around '72, where Schreiner operated 10 or so on behalf of Pelita, the aviation arm of state oil company Pertamina.

The Puma was originally designed for a military role and had to be 'transportable' in the ( also French designed ) C-160 Transall.

Hence the narrow body and landing gear, which caused the roll over problem.

Voila !

[Rotorhead77]

We've been flying a 332 in Halifax for one year now. Taxiing is certainly different from the 61 but our biggest issues would be with taxiing on the ice.

The double nose wheel can be difficult to turn when it's icy so we've found (after some slipping and sliding) that it's safer to engage the autopilot and hover taxi. The high C of G and hefty tail rotor don't help on the ice either.

[norwyreq]

I've flown(and taxied) 330's and 332's. When on the ground they both have a tendency to roll out of the turn, especially the 332 due to the longer wheel base.

HOWEVER!!! If you don't taxi like like race car diver trying to qualify on pole in a touring car race! You should be fine.

[Impress to inflate]

Leed with cyclic dear boy ! 7000+ hours on AS332's. I was always taught to leed with cyclic especially in strong winds and a light load. The Bristows originaly had 330's with a shorter wheel base that made them more top heavy but when the 332L arrived on the scene, it has a longer wheel base thus lowering it's c of g.

[Fareastdriver]

it has a longer wheel base thus lowering it's c of g.

Nothing to do with the CofG. The fuselage plug means that up to 40% of the aircraft's weight is on the nosewheel, that's why it is so difficult to turn compared with a short version. SOPs at Marignane when towing during the Mistral was to open both cabin doors to stop it being blown over. Unfortunately they did not tell Bristow or Bond.

[heli1]

The roll over/fall over ? tale I read was more to do with actual Puma landings ,especially in poor visibility, than taxiing .There does seem to have been a lot of this type of incident ?

[Cim Jartner]

I think the chance of a Puma rolling over during taxi is very limited - however the chance of one rolling over on a 'heavy' landing caused by any sort of power failure, mishandling is almost guaranteed.

I know someone who has had hard landings due to power 'failure' in both a Wessex and a Puma. In the Wessex incident he had a little sideways movement on landing and was full of troops - the ac stayed upright. On the Puma he landed with only forward movement, reasonably light etc but went over on its side - he states to this day that had the second incident happened in a Wessex it would have stayed upright!

[serf]

Why dont you just hover taxi?

[Fareastdriver]

To ruddy noisy. British Caledonian Helicopters took delivery of their Bell 214STs with skids. In less than a year they had been replaced with a wheeled undercarriage.

Bristow had one blown over being towed crosswind at Newcastle and the one that fell over on the deck North West of Shetland was blown over because the ship altered its heading unexpectedly.

As one poster mentioned before. The fuselage had not only to fit into a Transall and but also a railway truck. That's where the Turmo came from, it was used in high speed express trains.

[BedakSrewet]

The Turbomeca Turmo IIIC series engines were actually first installed on the SA321 "Super Frelon' in the early / mid 60's, and the IIIC4 model was then installed on the SA330 Puma's.

The industrial / railroad traction version was -and probably still are-, being operated on trains including a number in Iran for many years.