Great North Air Ambulance pair injured in microlight accident
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when it comes to tasking Torque is essentially correct. On a number of occaisions the Ambulance Service has called for an Air Ambulance because of the need to task an asset within it's timeframe targets laid down by the Government - once an asset tasked job done and nothing more required.
This is the essential difference between the Ambulance Auth's in England and Wales vs Scotland. Scotland has a dedicated Air Desk and they will act notianally as the ARCC would once a helicopter has been scrambled. Thus providing better support to the Air Ambulance and the Casualty etc.
When it comes to tasking of Air Ambulances vs SAR Helos the England and Wales Amb Auth's don't care/know what SAR can do for them - except those in Yorkshire after Leconfield did some excellent liaison work and now the Yorkshire Amb Auths will call Leconfield because they are aware of them and what they can do and how much they cost(Nothing).
Solution: Torque - go to the Newcastle Ambulance Control room and talk to them. In the end any aviation incident should come under the purview of SAR whether anyone likes it or not but after years of having SAR noone in the England and Wales Police, Ambulance authorities know what SAR does until a major city floods and then they come begging for help from someone who speaks helicopter.
Crab - please calm down about the future of SAR. No less capable than current facility and the bidders are well aware of the need for NVG.
Back to the theme of this thread: Glad both guys survived and wish a speedy full recovery and return to work.
Happy New Year
This is the essential difference between the Ambulance Auth's in England and Wales vs Scotland. Scotland has a dedicated Air Desk and they will act notianally as the ARCC would once a helicopter has been scrambled. Thus providing better support to the Air Ambulance and the Casualty etc.
When it comes to tasking of Air Ambulances vs SAR Helos the England and Wales Amb Auth's don't care/know what SAR can do for them - except those in Yorkshire after Leconfield did some excellent liaison work and now the Yorkshire Amb Auths will call Leconfield because they are aware of them and what they can do and how much they cost(Nothing).
Solution: Torque - go to the Newcastle Ambulance Control room and talk to them. In the end any aviation incident should come under the purview of SAR whether anyone likes it or not but after years of having SAR noone in the England and Wales Police, Ambulance authorities know what SAR does until a major city floods and then they come begging for help from someone who speaks helicopter.
Crab - please calm down about the future of SAR. No less capable than current facility and the bidders are well aware of the need for NVG.
Back to the theme of this thread: Glad both guys survived and wish a speedy full recovery and return to work.
Happy New Year
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rans6andrew
Local Newspaper Reports following.
http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk
"TWO Cumbrian air ambulance crew members who were seriously injured in a plane crash were last night still critical but stable in intensive care.
Pilot Jim Martin, 49, and paramedic Jon Ker, 34, have both undergone surgery after the microlight they were flying on their day off plunged to the ground.
Mr Martin was taken in a police helicopter and Mr Ker in the Teesside-based air ambulance which is part of the Great North Air Ambulance Service the men work for. Mr Martin suffered life-threatening injuries to his legs, arm, and face. Mr Ker sustained a badly broken leg and significant head injury"
Local Newspaper Reports following.
http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk
"TWO Cumbrian air ambulance crew members who were seriously injured in a plane crash were last night still critical but stable in intensive care.
Pilot Jim Martin, 49, and paramedic Jon Ker, 34, have both undergone surgery after the microlight they were flying on their day off plunged to the ground.
Mr Martin was taken in a police helicopter and Mr Ker in the Teesside-based air ambulance which is part of the Great North Air Ambulance Service the men work for. Mr Martin suffered life-threatening injuries to his legs, arm, and face. Mr Ker sustained a badly broken leg and significant head injury"
Russell - re transferring patients to AA for onward transfer, what skills and equipment will there be on an AA that we don't have on a SAR aircraft? The main problem will be the extra time taken for patient handover - the only reason I can think that you would want to transfer is if the SAR aircraft is needed for another job urgently and the casualty is not so time critical in terms of injuries.
Saint Evil - good points re tasking but the 'no less capable' statement has already started to be discussed and that is the first step towards compromising it. Maybe this is why the SARF is committing some top chaps to the scoring process for SARH. Whilst the bidders know they need NVG, the CAA are the ones who will have to change the rules to allow it as well as other exceptions to the ANO.
Saint Evil - good points re tasking but the 'no less capable' statement has already started to be discussed and that is the first step towards compromising it. Maybe this is why the SARF is committing some top chaps to the scoring process for SARH. Whilst the bidders know they need NVG, the CAA are the ones who will have to change the rules to allow it as well as other exceptions to the ANO.
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Saint Evil...
"When it comes to tasking of Air Ambulances vs SAR Helos the England and Wales Amb Auth's don't care/know what SAR can do for them - except those in Yorkshire after Leconfield did some excellent liaison work and now the Yorkshire Amb Auths will call Leconfield because they are aware of them and what they can do and how much they cost(Nothing)"
That's not quite the case Saint. Ambulance Control in Yorkshire no longer directly task / despatch / control any helicopters. Any request for helicopter support from YAS or any of the adjoining areas goes to the full-time dedicated helicopter despatchers manning the Airdesk at the Yorks Air Ambulance base. If the despatcher deems that SAR assets are the best option they will (and have on many occasions) be tasked.
The beauty of this is that the despatchers -YAS staff, medically trained and with good local knowledge - are located with the aircrew. We have real-time, on-line access to the 999 calls as they are coming in. Every potential job is looked at by despatcher and aircrew and if a response is deemed appropriate, it will be despatched, be it our helicopter, our ground vehicle, SAR or another AA from a neighbouring service.
Previously we depended on ambulance control identifying potential jobs for us. That either resulted in jobs being missed as the controllers were too busy to task us or forgot about us, or when we complained about not been used, inappropriate tasking which resulted in high stand down rates.
At one stage we had over 40% stand-down rate - now we are in the low teens.
We do have a good relationship with Lec, and our paramedics are often out flying with them on training sorties. We have also had Lec crew flying with us on the 902, so we are aware of their capabilities.
However, I have to keep harping back to the fact that some people keep conveniently ignoring -SARcabs are NOT primary, dedicated 999 response vehicles. We CANNOT rely on them to be there whenever we need them. So the ground ambulance is tasked (to every incident whether or not we attend). If we or the ground crew then decide that helicopter support is required, we despatch the AA. If that resource proves inadequate then we esaclate the response as required.
It is all about an appropriate and proportional response. If we deem SAR to be appropriate, we will use them. First response is not appropriate. Bringing them in as and when a need has been identified and they can bring something extra to the party is appropriate.
Crab - I can't speak for any other regions / AA operations, but I believe that the way we are trying to do it is in the best interests of the patients and best use of assets. Send the scouts in first, and then respond accordingly. Don't steam straight in with the carriers and battleships. And yes it will always be the case that we will look to use our assets first - that is after all why we have them.
Looked at from the other side - if you had,for example, a downed Tucano
and the crash site was located closer to an AA base than a SAR base would D+D call us or you? Are D+D aware of the location, capabilities and status (on-line, off-line tasked etc) of all the AA assets? I doubt it.
"When it comes to tasking of Air Ambulances vs SAR Helos the England and Wales Amb Auth's don't care/know what SAR can do for them - except those in Yorkshire after Leconfield did some excellent liaison work and now the Yorkshire Amb Auths will call Leconfield because they are aware of them and what they can do and how much they cost(Nothing)"
That's not quite the case Saint. Ambulance Control in Yorkshire no longer directly task / despatch / control any helicopters. Any request for helicopter support from YAS or any of the adjoining areas goes to the full-time dedicated helicopter despatchers manning the Airdesk at the Yorks Air Ambulance base. If the despatcher deems that SAR assets are the best option they will (and have on many occasions) be tasked.
The beauty of this is that the despatchers -YAS staff, medically trained and with good local knowledge - are located with the aircrew. We have real-time, on-line access to the 999 calls as they are coming in. Every potential job is looked at by despatcher and aircrew and if a response is deemed appropriate, it will be despatched, be it our helicopter, our ground vehicle, SAR or another AA from a neighbouring service.
Previously we depended on ambulance control identifying potential jobs for us. That either resulted in jobs being missed as the controllers were too busy to task us or forgot about us, or when we complained about not been used, inappropriate tasking which resulted in high stand down rates.
At one stage we had over 40% stand-down rate - now we are in the low teens.
We do have a good relationship with Lec, and our paramedics are often out flying with them on training sorties. We have also had Lec crew flying with us on the 902, so we are aware of their capabilities.
However, I have to keep harping back to the fact that some people keep conveniently ignoring -SARcabs are NOT primary, dedicated 999 response vehicles. We CANNOT rely on them to be there whenever we need them. So the ground ambulance is tasked (to every incident whether or not we attend). If we or the ground crew then decide that helicopter support is required, we despatch the AA. If that resource proves inadequate then we esaclate the response as required.
It is all about an appropriate and proportional response. If we deem SAR to be appropriate, we will use them. First response is not appropriate. Bringing them in as and when a need has been identified and they can bring something extra to the party is appropriate.
Crab - I can't speak for any other regions / AA operations, but I believe that the way we are trying to do it is in the best interests of the patients and best use of assets. Send the scouts in first, and then respond accordingly. Don't steam straight in with the carriers and battleships. And yes it will always be the case that we will look to use our assets first - that is after all why we have them.
Looked at from the other side - if you had,for example, a downed Tucano
and the crash site was located closer to an AA base than a SAR base would D+D call us or you? Are D+D aware of the location, capabilities and status (on-line, off-line tasked etc) of all the AA assets? I doubt it.
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Further update:
Hexham Courant article:
Hexham Courant article:
Air ambulance crew ‘critical’
By GEMMA SOMERVILLE
A HEXHAM pilot and his Great North Air Ambulance colleague are in intensive care after surviving a flying accident which saw them fall from the sky.
Jim Martin (49), of Shaws Park and his workmate and friend, Jon Ker (34), from Rothbury, were both seriously injured after the light aircraft they were flying crashed near Morpeth on Sunday.
The GNAAS chief pilot Jim, and senior paramedic Jon, had to be freed from the wreckage by emergency services after their BanBi microlight crashed into a copse close to Burgham Park golf course and leisure club at Felton.
Both men were airlifted to Newcastle General Hospital with multiple injuries, one by air ambulance, the other by police helicopter.
Jim’s wife Margaret told the Courant on Monday that Jim, who is still in intensive care at Newcastle General Hospital, was unconscious and on a ventilator.
Jon has since been transferred to Newcastle’s Royal Victoria Infirmary for surgery on his ankle.
A spokesman for the GNAA described the accident as “tragic” and said the men were vital members of the GNAA team.
She said: “Our Teesside air ambulance responded to the accident as the nearest one available, as normal, only to discover it was Jim and Jon involved.
“They were flown to Newcastle General Hospital and taken straight into theatre.
“Our thoughts are with them and their families at this very difficult time and we wish them both a speedy recovery.”
The accident is the third time Jim, who began his flying career in the RAF, has cheated death.
Miraculously in January 2006, the pair survived a climbing accident on Ben Nevis which claimed the life of their friend and GNAA colleague, Dr Rupert Bennett.
The climbers had abandoned their attempt on the peak after bad weather set in, but as they began their descent the ground under Jim and Rupert gave way, and the pair plunged 150ft into a gully.
Rupert died in the fall, and a badly injured Jim was left fighting for survival on the mountainside for four hours while Jon, who was also hurt, managed to walk to the nearest rescue hut to raise the alarm.
Jon’s courageous efforts were recognised when he received a Vodafone Life Savers Award in November 2006.
Almost two decades earlier Jim had already defied the odds when he was the only survivor of a helicopter crash at Hanover Air Show in 1988, which killed all eight of his crew.
His Chinook helicopter burst into flames after its blades hit a set of aeroplane steps on the ground.
Following the microlight crash on Sunday, witnesses have recalled how they heard the aircraft’s engine cut out before it began falling into woodland from around 1,000ft.
Members of Burgham Park golf club who were on the course at the time are said to have witnessed the crash and contacted emergency services.
The microlight is believed to have set off from nearby Felton airfield and was thought to be heading for Eshott airfield.
A spokesman for Northumbria Police said: “We received a call at about 12.10pm from several people who had seen the plane come down. The two men in the plane were taken to hospital and the extent of their injuries is still unclear.
“It is unclear at the moment why the plane came down; both men were experienced pilots and had not reported any problems before it came down.”
Newcastle General Hospital confirmed yesterday that both Jim and Jon remained in a critical but stable condition.
The area around the crash site was being preserved earlier this week while accident investigators from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) began making inquiries.
By GEMMA SOMERVILLE
A HEXHAM pilot and his Great North Air Ambulance colleague are in intensive care after surviving a flying accident which saw them fall from the sky.
Jim Martin (49), of Shaws Park and his workmate and friend, Jon Ker (34), from Rothbury, were both seriously injured after the light aircraft they were flying crashed near Morpeth on Sunday.
The GNAAS chief pilot Jim, and senior paramedic Jon, had to be freed from the wreckage by emergency services after their BanBi microlight crashed into a copse close to Burgham Park golf course and leisure club at Felton.
Both men were airlifted to Newcastle General Hospital with multiple injuries, one by air ambulance, the other by police helicopter.
Jim’s wife Margaret told the Courant on Monday that Jim, who is still in intensive care at Newcastle General Hospital, was unconscious and on a ventilator.
Jon has since been transferred to Newcastle’s Royal Victoria Infirmary for surgery on his ankle.
A spokesman for the GNAA described the accident as “tragic” and said the men were vital members of the GNAA team.
She said: “Our Teesside air ambulance responded to the accident as the nearest one available, as normal, only to discover it was Jim and Jon involved.
“They were flown to Newcastle General Hospital and taken straight into theatre.
“Our thoughts are with them and their families at this very difficult time and we wish them both a speedy recovery.”
The accident is the third time Jim, who began his flying career in the RAF, has cheated death.
Miraculously in January 2006, the pair survived a climbing accident on Ben Nevis which claimed the life of their friend and GNAA colleague, Dr Rupert Bennett.
The climbers had abandoned their attempt on the peak after bad weather set in, but as they began their descent the ground under Jim and Rupert gave way, and the pair plunged 150ft into a gully.
Rupert died in the fall, and a badly injured Jim was left fighting for survival on the mountainside for four hours while Jon, who was also hurt, managed to walk to the nearest rescue hut to raise the alarm.
Jon’s courageous efforts were recognised when he received a Vodafone Life Savers Award in November 2006.
Almost two decades earlier Jim had already defied the odds when he was the only survivor of a helicopter crash at Hanover Air Show in 1988, which killed all eight of his crew.
His Chinook helicopter burst into flames after its blades hit a set of aeroplane steps on the ground.
Following the microlight crash on Sunday, witnesses have recalled how they heard the aircraft’s engine cut out before it began falling into woodland from around 1,000ft.
Members of Burgham Park golf club who were on the course at the time are said to have witnessed the crash and contacted emergency services.
The microlight is believed to have set off from nearby Felton airfield and was thought to be heading for Eshott airfield.
A spokesman for Northumbria Police said: “We received a call at about 12.10pm from several people who had seen the plane come down. The two men in the plane were taken to hospital and the extent of their injuries is still unclear.
“It is unclear at the moment why the plane came down; both men were experienced pilots and had not reported any problems before it came down.”
Newcastle General Hospital confirmed yesterday that both Jim and Jon remained in a critical but stable condition.
The area around the crash site was being preserved earlier this week while accident investigators from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) began making inquiries.
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Saint Evil said: "This is the essential difference between the Ambulance Auth's in England and Wales vs Scotland. Scotland has a dedicated Air Desk and they will act notianally as the ARCC would once a helicopter has been scrambled. Thus providing better support to the Air Ambulance and the Casualty etc."
Regretably you are a little out of date regarding the Scottish Ambulance Service Air Desk. For various reasons, not the least being the fact that it was an unnecessary and time wasting layer of control that led to an impediment to expeditious tasking, the Air Desk was abolished in April 2006.
At this time control of the 2 HEMS helicopters in Scotland reverted to the relevant local Ambulance Control Centre. Basically, Inverness Control Centre for the Northern part of the country and Paisley for the Southern half, although there are no rigid geographical limits and either control can deal with an incident requiring the HEMS aircraft's attendance anywhere in Scotland.
This reversion of control led to a massive reduiction in Hems callout times and much more appropriate tasking
This long overdue abolition of the Air Desk was coincidental with the new long term Air Ambulance contract that was let to GAMA Aviation/Bond Air Services, and comprised 2 EC135s and 2 new new specially equipped King Airs.
There is a coordinating cell at GAMA's Operations Center but this deals only with planned/non HEMS flights.
Something that has not been mentioned regarding "tasking" of a SAR helicopter are the facts that:
1 Ambulance control (in Scotland anyway) cannot "task" a SAR helicopter, only request its provision
2 The decision whether to provide the SAR aircraft (or not) can sometimes take a very long time involving several phone calls to/fro
3 A busy Ambulance Control simply does not have the time for extended discussions re SAR helicopters and will inevitably send its own Ac with its simplified call out system
Regretably you are a little out of date regarding the Scottish Ambulance Service Air Desk. For various reasons, not the least being the fact that it was an unnecessary and time wasting layer of control that led to an impediment to expeditious tasking, the Air Desk was abolished in April 2006.
At this time control of the 2 HEMS helicopters in Scotland reverted to the relevant local Ambulance Control Centre. Basically, Inverness Control Centre for the Northern part of the country and Paisley for the Southern half, although there are no rigid geographical limits and either control can deal with an incident requiring the HEMS aircraft's attendance anywhere in Scotland.
This reversion of control led to a massive reduiction in Hems callout times and much more appropriate tasking
This long overdue abolition of the Air Desk was coincidental with the new long term Air Ambulance contract that was let to GAMA Aviation/Bond Air Services, and comprised 2 EC135s and 2 new new specially equipped King Airs.
There is a coordinating cell at GAMA's Operations Center but this deals only with planned/non HEMS flights.
Something that has not been mentioned regarding "tasking" of a SAR helicopter are the facts that:
1 Ambulance control (in Scotland anyway) cannot "task" a SAR helicopter, only request its provision
2 The decision whether to provide the SAR aircraft (or not) can sometimes take a very long time involving several phone calls to/fro
3 A busy Ambulance Control simply does not have the time for extended discussions re SAR helicopters and will inevitably send its own Ac with its simplified call out system
Flaxton - D & D don't but the ARRCK do - we would probably be tasked after D & D called the ARCCK and you would be called because someone phoned 999 and reported the crash.
Your setup sounds very good and mixes aviation knowledge with ambulance protocols - but for oldmanofthesky's post, I would have said it was the model that all ambulance authorities should follow; however, they have been using a similar model in Scotland and have rejected it in favour of direct tasking - I am afraid I don't know why.
OMOTSky - it should only take one call to the ARCC to ask for a SAR aircraft (the ARCC are the only ones in UK that can task us) and it usually just needs some basic information so that the controller can justify launching us (poor weather, remote location, AA on other tasking, life threatening injuries etc).
Your setup sounds very good and mixes aviation knowledge with ambulance protocols - but for oldmanofthesky's post, I would have said it was the model that all ambulance authorities should follow; however, they have been using a similar model in Scotland and have rejected it in favour of direct tasking - I am afraid I don't know why.
OMOTSky - it should only take one call to the ARCC to ask for a SAR aircraft (the ARCC are the only ones in UK that can task us) and it usually just needs some basic information so that the controller can justify launching us (poor weather, remote location, AA on other tasking, life threatening injuries etc).
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Crab-The tasking system was changed BACK to direct tasking for HEMS missions following the 15 years or so experience of the Scottish Ambulance Service operating EMS Helicopters. 10 years direct tasking was followed by 5 years of tasking thru the Airdesk. This was coincidental with the contract change when GAMA took over the overall running of the AA contract in Scotland.
Trust me when I say it was an immense relief to revert to Direct Tasking for all involved, Aircrews, EMDC staff and land ambulance personnel. Just imagine another bunch of decision makers with little aviation knowledge and one eye on the budget between ARCC and the SAR Det.
The Airdesk was an unnecesary level of command that slowed down tasking/response and did nothing to enhance the AA operation.
With regard to a single call with sufficient info to ARCC being enough to allow the SAR helicopter to be tasked, maybe in theory, but believe me (I have very close ties to an EMDC) the process can sometimes take an extended time and involve many phone calls to and fro.
Trust me when I say it was an immense relief to revert to Direct Tasking for all involved, Aircrews, EMDC staff and land ambulance personnel. Just imagine another bunch of decision makers with little aviation knowledge and one eye on the budget between ARCC and the SAR Det.
The Airdesk was an unnecesary level of command that slowed down tasking/response and did nothing to enhance the AA operation.
With regard to a single call with sufficient info to ARCC being enough to allow the SAR helicopter to be tasked, maybe in theory, but believe me (I have very close ties to an EMDC) the process can sometimes take an extended time and involve many phone calls to and fro.
OMOTSky - so was it the individuals who were running the air desk that were the problem or just the concept of there being an air desk that was unpopular? Do you think Flaxton's setup will have the same problems or is it just down to who you put in to run the air desk tha makes the difference?
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Crab -
oldman said "Just imagine another bunch of decision makers with little aviation knowledge and one eye on the budget between ARCC and the SAR Det"
Perhaps that's where the Scottish model fell down, and ours (so far) seems to work. Firstly, we don't have another bunch of decision makers - we have basically removed the original decision makers (ambulance service despatchers) from their control room and put them in with the aircrew. Masses of aviation, medical and local knowledge in one room. And secondly, (perhaps even more important) they don't have to worry about budget restraints.
We currently task our two aircraft in Yorkshire, plus GNAA's Teesside based 902 into North Yorkshire whenever they are better placed than us to attend. How far you could scale this up - for example a "North of England" AA despatch centre - is debatable.
Our Airdesk works because it is small scale and specialised. You could no doubt replicate it at the other AA units around the country given the will and the (not inconsiderable amounts of ) money required to introduce and man it.
At the end of the day, however, you would still be far from any type of centralised command and control of all the airborne assets.
oldman said "Just imagine another bunch of decision makers with little aviation knowledge and one eye on the budget between ARCC and the SAR Det"
Perhaps that's where the Scottish model fell down, and ours (so far) seems to work. Firstly, we don't have another bunch of decision makers - we have basically removed the original decision makers (ambulance service despatchers) from their control room and put them in with the aircrew. Masses of aviation, medical and local knowledge in one room. And secondly, (perhaps even more important) they don't have to worry about budget restraints.
We currently task our two aircraft in Yorkshire, plus GNAA's Teesside based 902 into North Yorkshire whenever they are better placed than us to attend. How far you could scale this up - for example a "North of England" AA despatch centre - is debatable.
Our Airdesk works because it is small scale and specialised. You could no doubt replicate it at the other AA units around the country given the will and the (not inconsiderable amounts of ) money required to introduce and man it.
At the end of the day, however, you would still be far from any type of centralised command and control of all the airborne assets.
