Great North Air Ambulance pair injured in microlight accident
Stan,
Cheap shot Sir!
...but it wasn't though, was it, because one Air Ambulance came all the way from Teesside and another tried to get across from Carlisle but couldn't get to the incident. Meanwhile, two other helicopters sat idle only 10 miles from the pair who needed help!
Not a pissing contest at all, just genuine interest as to the decision-making process - in the name of ensuring that casualties always get the best service possible. In this case, the summoning of aircraft from distant bases fortunately made no difference to the casualties' condition, but this might not always be the case. Is it really hard to understand my wondering why Air Ambulances were tasked from far afield, using up both time and cash, when a helicopter was available for free only a stone's throw away?
It is tying up precious assets to use three helicopters from three bases (removing Air Amb cover from Cumbria and Teesside) where one local one could have achieved the same end result. And it wouldn't be depriving the area of SAR cover, as Flaxton Flyer suggested, because there are at least two Sea Kings and two crews at each SAR base.
Or am I forever a heretic for daring to question why something was done, when it seems that there might have been a better alternative?
The RAF is neither looking for both
assistance was delivered so swiftly
Not a pissing contest at all, just genuine interest as to the decision-making process - in the name of ensuring that casualties always get the best service possible. In this case, the summoning of aircraft from distant bases fortunately made no difference to the casualties' condition, but this might not always be the case. Is it really hard to understand my wondering why Air Ambulances were tasked from far afield, using up both time and cash, when a helicopter was available for free only a stone's throw away?
It is tying up precious assets to use three helicopters from three bases (removing Air Amb cover from Cumbria and Teesside) where one local one could have achieved the same end result. And it wouldn't be depriving the area of SAR cover, as Flaxton Flyer suggested, because there are at least two Sea Kings and two crews at each SAR base.
Or am I forever a heretic for daring to question why something was done, when it seems that there might have been a better alternative?
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The only downfall in not having government support seems to be the lack of suitable hospital landing sites..... The shocking fact is, hospitals don’t like air ambulances because we cost them a fortune bringing in serious trauma patients that they have to spend money on.... Over the last few years i've seen 2 landing sites disappear because they can make more money out of them by turning them into car parks and making revenue out of the patch of ground.
It is a sad fact and one that totally makes air ambulances fall flat on their face. Most hospitals don’t have a landing site with direct access to the Accident and Emergency departments and require a pick up/ transfer of anything up to 3-4 miles from the pad by land ambulance..... Which can cost patients their lives!!!!!!
It is a sad fact and one that totally makes air ambulances fall flat on their face. Most hospitals don’t have a landing site with direct access to the Accident and Emergency departments and require a pick up/ transfer of anything up to 3-4 miles from the pad by land ambulance..... Which can cost patients their lives!!!!!!
Last edited by Russell Sprout; 2nd Jan 2008 at 16:45.
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When the NHS commissioned the new Walsgrave Hospital (it has some pretentious proper title involving universities, but I can't remember), in Coventry, they had a purpose built pad constructed right outside A&E. Has lighting and a windsock too!
The most amusing thing is that when it is in use nobody can get into or out of the car parks due to an access road being on the approach path (right in front of pad) - so it is closed during arrival / departure I am led to believe. Never seen Helimed 53 (or any other heli) arriving or departing at close range to confirm though - but I am told this is the case.
HC.
The most amusing thing is that when it is in use nobody can get into or out of the car parks due to an access road being on the approach path (right in front of pad) - so it is closed during arrival / departure I am led to believe. Never seen Helimed 53 (or any other heli) arriving or departing at close range to confirm though - but I am told this is the case.
HC.
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protocol.. protocol.. protocol..
Hi Torque, just a couple of points..
All this closest aircraft is very good in theory, but fact is more that the ambulance will call the air ambulance first, then no one else.
Often the police at scene will suggest their helicopter, a paramedic might request it, or the crew at North East Air Support will be made aware of a serious accident by the control room and offer their services.
Last on the list every time is SAR. Especially for ambulance work. Most people just think 'winch' when you think of the Sea King, not the paramedic trained crews. In this case it was only 10 minutes away, but this is unusual.
I don't believe this task was a 'swoop and scoop' (but am not 100% certain)and both the air ambo and police were shut down on the ground for a time before transporting Jim and Jon.
I'm sure if you had the ability to monitor police or ambulance radios things may be different, but (correct me if I'm wrong) you're reliant on people contacting you by telephone, thats the problem...
Oh and while I'm here I cant resist another cheap shot/banter.. each base has two aircraft and two crews.. what? serviceable and on at the same time, good one!
All this closest aircraft is very good in theory, but fact is more that the ambulance will call the air ambulance first, then no one else.
Often the police at scene will suggest their helicopter, a paramedic might request it, or the crew at North East Air Support will be made aware of a serious accident by the control room and offer their services.
Last on the list every time is SAR. Especially for ambulance work. Most people just think 'winch' when you think of the Sea King, not the paramedic trained crews. In this case it was only 10 minutes away, but this is unusual.
I don't believe this task was a 'swoop and scoop' (but am not 100% certain)and both the air ambo and police were shut down on the ground for a time before transporting Jim and Jon.
I'm sure if you had the ability to monitor police or ambulance radios things may be different, but (correct me if I'm wrong) you're reliant on people contacting you by telephone, thats the problem...
Oh and while I'm here I cant resist another cheap shot/banter.. each base has two aircraft and two crews.. what? serviceable and on at the same time, good one!
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Agree with Bandeeto,
Air Ambulances in the UK are controlled by a regional control. The crew aren't listening out on a radio and jump at what incidences they feel like going to.
If ambulance control deemed what assets were available were needed (based on the info they had and before actual eyes on scene), that is why the a/c that attended were sent. And don't forget.....it's all about response time also (did I just say that?).
Air Ambulances in the UK are controlled by a regional control. The crew aren't listening out on a radio and jump at what incidences they feel like going to.
If ambulance control deemed what assets were available were needed (based on the info they had and before actual eyes on scene), that is why the a/c that attended were sent. And don't forget.....it's all about response time also (did I just say that?).
Bandeeto,
I hear your two serviceable aircraft at Boulmer and I raise you three! No kidding, three serviceable Sea Kings in the same place for the last two weeks. No more than two crews available at any one time though.
I agree with almost all of what you say (apart from the cruel - and untrue! - banter), especially about comms difficulties. I do think though that a crew who are specialists in handling downed aircrew would have something to offer at an incident like this (I know Jim & Jon weren't ejectees, but some of the injuries sustained in a microlight crash are likely to be similar to those sustained in an ejection).
The only bit I disagree with is your assertion that it's unusual for a SAR asset to be closer to an incident than an Air Amb - the SAR helo is often closer, hence my surprise that we're not often used by the Ambulance Service (why the reluctance? It's not as if they are going to be charged or criticised for using SAR, even if the aircraft gets recalled en route if the incident is resolved by other means). Last autumn there was a serious RTA on the A1 only 7 nm from Boulmer, but again the Air Ambs attended from Teesside and Carlisle while the Sea Kings at Boulmer sat idle. On that occasion, one of the casualties died en route to hospital (or was it in hospital?); I'm not suggesting for a moment that using the Sea King would have meant that the man would have survived, but it still seems perverse that a delay was incurred waiting for aircraft to arrive from far afield when a suitable asset was so close.
As for all this banter about response time, it would seem that some people have never actually seen a Sea King launch on a job! Assuming overland tasking in Day VMC, 5-6 mins is all it takes, which is hardly a great penalty over the 2-3 mins for an Air Ambulance - especially when the Sea King has 10 miles or less to transit to the scene compared with up to 50nm for everyone else. An Air Amb may go a bit quicker than a Sea King, but Concorde it ain't!
I hear your two serviceable aircraft at Boulmer and I raise you three! No kidding, three serviceable Sea Kings in the same place for the last two weeks. No more than two crews available at any one time though.
I agree with almost all of what you say (apart from the cruel - and untrue! - banter), especially about comms difficulties. I do think though that a crew who are specialists in handling downed aircrew would have something to offer at an incident like this (I know Jim & Jon weren't ejectees, but some of the injuries sustained in a microlight crash are likely to be similar to those sustained in an ejection).
The only bit I disagree with is your assertion that it's unusual for a SAR asset to be closer to an incident than an Air Amb - the SAR helo is often closer, hence my surprise that we're not often used by the Ambulance Service (why the reluctance? It's not as if they are going to be charged or criticised for using SAR, even if the aircraft gets recalled en route if the incident is resolved by other means). Last autumn there was a serious RTA on the A1 only 7 nm from Boulmer, but again the Air Ambs attended from Teesside and Carlisle while the Sea Kings at Boulmer sat idle. On that occasion, one of the casualties died en route to hospital (or was it in hospital?); I'm not suggesting for a moment that using the Sea King would have meant that the man would have survived, but it still seems perverse that a delay was incurred waiting for aircraft to arrive from far afield when a suitable asset was so close.
As for all this banter about response time, it would seem that some people have never actually seen a Sea King launch on a job! Assuming overland tasking in Day VMC, 5-6 mins is all it takes, which is hardly a great penalty over the 2-3 mins for an Air Ambulance - especially when the Sea King has 10 miles or less to transit to the scene compared with up to 50nm for everyone else. An Air Amb may go a bit quicker than a Sea King, but Concorde it ain't!
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The crew perspective!
Watched the discussion grow with interest and was asked to submit this article yesterday.
1) HM58-VERY fast aircraft- 42nm from scene.
2) HM63-FAST aircraft-VERY FAST at start up. 47nm from scene. Just finishing
3) HM20- Off line that day.
Other things to be taken into consideration are - The aircraft are warm, have specialised medical equipment on board, have specialised drugs on board, have very experienced medics onboard including a Trauma Doctor/Anaesthetist, are quick to start up and are quick aircraft in flight. They can land-hot unload-and be airborne again in minutes, allowing another aircraft to land and unload their patient and can actually land at this particular hospital because they are small enough, etc, etc.
OK. H58 could not get there, but other suitable resources were able to (see ref to 063 above). Also on scene, were I99, the police aircraft, who always offer to assist in these situations and can also land at this particular hospital. Many, many thanks to those guys for their assistance in this and many other similar situations.
As the aircraft took the casualties from the scene, the land ambulance was then clear to carry out other duties. If the larger aircraft had been used, two ambulances would have been required at the alternative landing site for secondary transfer. The internal site at the hospital in question is not big enough for the larger aircraft. If the incident occurs during a busy period then land ambulances may not have been readily available, placing more pressure on stretched resources.
Hopefully we are highlighting the work of Air Ambulances. The bottom line is a doctor was on scene just after 20 minutes of the call. They received medical treatment from a doctor en route and despatched to the nearest appropriate hospital within 45 minutes. All the emergency services involved should be congratulated for their swift response and professional service. We can all learn from hindsight but hopefully this shows another side to the discussion!
Regards
OM
1) HM58-VERY fast aircraft- 42nm from scene.
2) HM63-FAST aircraft-VERY FAST at start up. 47nm from scene. Just finishing
3) HM20- Off line that day.
Other things to be taken into consideration are - The aircraft are warm, have specialised medical equipment on board, have specialised drugs on board, have very experienced medics onboard including a Trauma Doctor/Anaesthetist, are quick to start up and are quick aircraft in flight. They can land-hot unload-and be airborne again in minutes, allowing another aircraft to land and unload their patient and can actually land at this particular hospital because they are small enough, etc, etc.
OK. H58 could not get there, but other suitable resources were able to (see ref to 063 above). Also on scene, were I99, the police aircraft, who always offer to assist in these situations and can also land at this particular hospital. Many, many thanks to those guys for their assistance in this and many other similar situations.
As the aircraft took the casualties from the scene, the land ambulance was then clear to carry out other duties. If the larger aircraft had been used, two ambulances would have been required at the alternative landing site for secondary transfer. The internal site at the hospital in question is not big enough for the larger aircraft. If the incident occurs during a busy period then land ambulances may not have been readily available, placing more pressure on stretched resources.
Hopefully we are highlighting the work of Air Ambulances. The bottom line is a doctor was on scene just after 20 minutes of the call. They received medical treatment from a doctor en route and despatched to the nearest appropriate hospital within 45 minutes. All the emergency services involved should be congratulated for their swift response and professional service. We can all learn from hindsight but hopefully this shows another side to the discussion!
Regards
OM
Stan, the only thing that might change in 2012 is that when the weather is bad or at night and the AA can't fly, there might not be a SAR helicopter available for overland poor wx tasking because the crews are civvy and might not have NVG.
Additionally, the MCA might not allow a maritime SAR asset to be tasked when a land ambulance is available so 2012 might not be the panacea you seek.
I suspect that the situation in this case was the usual scenario of a SAR helicopter being the last on the priority list at the Ambulance Control room because they don't understand aviation and probably still think they have to pay if they use us.
Additionally, the MCA might not allow a maritime SAR asset to be tasked when a land ambulance is available so 2012 might not be the panacea you seek.
I suspect that the situation in this case was the usual scenario of a SAR helicopter being the last on the priority list at the Ambulance Control room because they don't understand aviation and probably still think they have to pay if they use us.
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Yes, it is probably true that an ambulance controller doesn't have a wealth of experience in helicopter operations......but the reason for police and SAR units being a lower priority on there 'picking' list is not because they don't like you....it's probably more due to the fact that they are ambulance service personnel, working in an ambulance service control room and therefore are more comfortable with using ambulance service assets...i.e first responders, rapid response vehicles, road ambulance crews and the air ambulance. It seems, in my experience, that police and SAR are asked to help if the normal ambulance assets aren't available or can't physically get to the scene.
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I would have thought that an accident involving a downed aircraft situation would have been controlled by D & D and the SAR would have been top of their pick list. Just a thought not knowing who found what and when.
Best wishes to the chaps involved.
Best wishes to the chaps involved.
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Crab -
“I suspect that the situation in this case was the usual scenario of a SAR helicopter being the last on the priority list at the Ambulance Control room because they don't understand aviation and probably still think they have to pay if they use us"
And I suspect that it was a case of the ambulance service using their dedicated assets to respond to a 999 call in accordance with SOPs. The clue is in the name – Air AMBULANCE. That’s exactly what they are – high-speed, rapid response front-line ambulances tasked in response to suitable 999 calls. Carrying paramedics and doctors highly experienced in this type of trauma.
Tasked by ambulance control dispatchers who have them in their system alongside the road ambulances. They know where they are, they know whether they are on or off-line, they know if they carry a doctor. Most of all they know that they are their assets to play with.
Can you say the same for the SAR cabs? Do all the ambulance control centres know the same information about all the SAR assets? Can they look at their screens and know instantly the operational status of the cabs – on-line, u/s, training, refueling, tasked on a mission etc ? Of course not.
SAR assets are not unconditionally available to ambulance control. The AAs are, that is why they are used for first response. That is their job. IF the situation requires specialist kit or procedures (mountain, maritime etc) then the AA crews invariably call on SAR. If any are available of course…
So, rather than the ambulance control “not understanding aviation” perhaps it’s your good self who doesn’t really understand the way the ambulance control works in the real world? (Or maybe you know it, but find it more convenient to ignore it?)
Here’s an idea. As you seem so desperate to annex HEMS, why don’t you offer the SAR cabs to the ambulance service for night HEMS? It will be a long time before any civvy units have the cash, equipment and training to safely take this on. You boys already have the kit and the training, and as you and Torque have pointed out, it’s all free! Win-win, and I’m sure that all the AA boys will thank you for saving them from a future of endless hours of hanging around through cold winter nights (when they could be tucked up in bed with the missus) and, quite frankly, risky ad-hoc night landings in the middle of nowhere on an inky-black winter’s night.
One other point about this incident. Torque said "Why send two small helicopters to lift one casualty each, thereby tying up two assets, when you could use one large one which is based nearby and could easily take both at once?"
Not sure if it has already been pointed out, but in a case like this involving multiple casualties, it is a little naive to expect them both to be extricated, stabilised and prepared for flight at the same time. If the first casualty extricated was in a critical condition, would the SK have sat around waiting for the second casualty or headed straight off to hospital? The second obviously, so I would venture that the fact that you could take carry two or even twenty two casualties at once is pretty irrelevant n'est-ce pas?
“I suspect that the situation in this case was the usual scenario of a SAR helicopter being the last on the priority list at the Ambulance Control room because they don't understand aviation and probably still think they have to pay if they use us"
And I suspect that it was a case of the ambulance service using their dedicated assets to respond to a 999 call in accordance with SOPs. The clue is in the name – Air AMBULANCE. That’s exactly what they are – high-speed, rapid response front-line ambulances tasked in response to suitable 999 calls. Carrying paramedics and doctors highly experienced in this type of trauma.
Tasked by ambulance control dispatchers who have them in their system alongside the road ambulances. They know where they are, they know whether they are on or off-line, they know if they carry a doctor. Most of all they know that they are their assets to play with.
Can you say the same for the SAR cabs? Do all the ambulance control centres know the same information about all the SAR assets? Can they look at their screens and know instantly the operational status of the cabs – on-line, u/s, training, refueling, tasked on a mission etc ? Of course not.
SAR assets are not unconditionally available to ambulance control. The AAs are, that is why they are used for first response. That is their job. IF the situation requires specialist kit or procedures (mountain, maritime etc) then the AA crews invariably call on SAR. If any are available of course…
So, rather than the ambulance control “not understanding aviation” perhaps it’s your good self who doesn’t really understand the way the ambulance control works in the real world? (Or maybe you know it, but find it more convenient to ignore it?)
Here’s an idea. As you seem so desperate to annex HEMS, why don’t you offer the SAR cabs to the ambulance service for night HEMS? It will be a long time before any civvy units have the cash, equipment and training to safely take this on. You boys already have the kit and the training, and as you and Torque have pointed out, it’s all free! Win-win, and I’m sure that all the AA boys will thank you for saving them from a future of endless hours of hanging around through cold winter nights (when they could be tucked up in bed with the missus) and, quite frankly, risky ad-hoc night landings in the middle of nowhere on an inky-black winter’s night.
One other point about this incident. Torque said "Why send two small helicopters to lift one casualty each, thereby tying up two assets, when you could use one large one which is based nearby and could easily take both at once?"
Not sure if it has already been pointed out, but in a case like this involving multiple casualties, it is a little naive to expect them both to be extricated, stabilised and prepared for flight at the same time. If the first casualty extricated was in a critical condition, would the SK have sat around waiting for the second casualty or headed straight off to hospital? The second obviously, so I would venture that the fact that you could take carry two or even twenty two casualties at once is pretty irrelevant n'est-ce pas?
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I would have thought that an accident involving a downed aircraft situation would have been controlled by D & D and the SAR would have been top of their pick list. Just a thought not knowing who found what and when.
Best wishes to the chaps involved.
Best wishes to the chaps involved.
Origimouse's post pretty well covers it for me, having been fortunate enough to spend time with both Carlisle and Teesside units.
Well done everyone, it must have been hard to attend to colleagues in such an event and get well soon guys, but I guess it will be a while before you're running across the tarmac again.
Regards
MS
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Whats with the 'when the weather is bad or at night and the AA can't fly, there might not be a SAR helicopter available for overland poor wx tasking because the crews are civvy'????????
So what kind of special kit does SAR have since i left that allows it to fly in poor weather overland that a CIVVY AA not got? HEMS minimum flight rules are 300' cloud base 3000m viz...... would you want to be out in anything less than that?
So what kind of special kit does SAR have since i left that allows it to fly in poor weather overland that a CIVVY AA not got? HEMS minimum flight rules are 300' cloud base 3000m viz...... would you want to be out in anything less than that?
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So what kind of special kit does SAR have since i left that allows it to fly in poor weather overland that a CIVVY AA not got? HEMS minimum flight rules are 300' cloud base 3000m viz...... would you want to be out in anything less than that?
MS
Russell - our weather limits are theoretically 150' and 1000m by day but we are allowed to operate well below this if the captain deems it neccessary to save life - this is why SAR helos can hover taxi under power lines and up the side of mountains in cloud. We have full IRs and a reasonable icing clearance allowing us to push further knowing we will have an IMC abort option, and we fly 2 pilot. At night we have NVG and our operational limits are again very flexible.
Flaxton - the problem with your argument is that the casualty is the one who has to wait for the ambulance control to task the land or air ambulance or both, wait for them to get on scene and decide the situation is not manageable and then wait for the control to request the SAR helo. This is not a pissing contest about who is better at what job, rather another opportunity to highlight the un-joined-up nature of emergency services response in UK. We have found that often the ambulance controllers are not only uninformed about the availability and capability of SAR helicopters but in some cases fed inaccurate information, specifically about cost (there is none).
Flaxton - the problem with your argument is that the casualty is the one who has to wait for the ambulance control to task the land or air ambulance or both, wait for them to get on scene and decide the situation is not manageable and then wait for the control to request the SAR helo. This is not a pissing contest about who is better at what job, rather another opportunity to highlight the un-joined-up nature of emergency services response in UK. We have found that often the ambulance controllers are not only uninformed about the availability and capability of SAR helicopters but in some cases fed inaccurate information, specifically about cost (there is none).
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Flaxton - the problem with your argument is that the casualty is the one who has to wait for the ambulance control to task the land or air ambulance or both, wait for them to get on scene and decide the situation is not manageable and then wait for the control to request the SAR helo. This is not a pissing contest about who is better at what job, rather another opportunity to highlight the un-joined-up nature of emergency services response in UK. We have found that often the ambulance controllers are not only uninformed about the availability and capability of SAR helicopters but in some cases fed inaccurate information, specifically about cost (there is none).
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This seems like a flash in the pan, UK SAR do a brilliant job and i take my hat off to all that serve us, maybe on this occasion a seaking was closer but when you think that virtually every County has an Air Ambulance the odds are that one is always going to be closer than a SAR asset. In a medical situation the Military could never provide the service that an air ambulance could deliver within the same timeframe. Likewise you would be pissing in the wind sending a Air ambulance out to sea.
When you break down the roles of each force there is no contest:
Rescue at sea= SAR (Long range/ equipped/ winch/ support structure)
Trauma onshore= AA (Speed/ size/ equipment/ Skilled specialist- Doc/ Paramedic)
I hear that Flaxtons mob up in Yorkshire run a dedicated air desk staffed by ambulance control dispatchers with direct comms to the RCC in Kinloss, and have on numerous occasions called the Leconfield Seaking out to assist...... This definitely seems the way ahead.
One query i have from the SAR members…… Would you or have you ever considered transferring patients to an air ambulance for onward transfers to hospital due to the skills and equipment that they can offer?
When you break down the roles of each force there is no contest:
Rescue at sea= SAR (Long range/ equipped/ winch/ support structure)
Trauma onshore= AA (Speed/ size/ equipment/ Skilled specialist- Doc/ Paramedic)
I hear that Flaxtons mob up in Yorkshire run a dedicated air desk staffed by ambulance control dispatchers with direct comms to the RCC in Kinloss, and have on numerous occasions called the Leconfield Seaking out to assist...... This definitely seems the way ahead.
One query i have from the SAR members…… Would you or have you ever considered transferring patients to an air ambulance for onward transfers to hospital due to the skills and equipment that they can offer?