GOM Air Log crash and AEL ems crash
Perhaps a real detailed, impartial investigation of the GOM accident might prove to be beneficial to the operator and either a validation of the flight dispatch approval method or a determination of how the system failed to prevent this tragedy could be accomplished.
Weather being rather fickle sometimes.....even the best of us with the very best of intentions can find ourselves stuck way out at the tippy end of a very high limb.
Weather being rather fickle sometimes.....even the best of us with the very best of intentions can find ourselves stuck way out at the tippy end of a very high limb.
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A slight off-thread question.
I'm not sure if i've picked up some of the comments incorrectly, but in the GOM are the base managers involved in the decision to fly or not?
I fly in the north sea, and in 9 years of flying there have never felt any pressure to fly in weather conditions or circumstances that both crew members weren't happy with.
As i say, i may have mis-read some of the comments, but find it incredible if some other people other than the flying crew are making decisions about whether a flight can go or not.
My question is meant as a general question, and not implying anything about these particular incidents: until a final reprt comes out with all the details on it, i don't see how anyone can be sure what caused the crashes.
Andy
I fly in the north sea, and in 9 years of flying there have never felt any pressure to fly in weather conditions or circumstances that both crew members weren't happy with.
As i say, i may have mis-read some of the comments, but find it incredible if some other people other than the flying crew are making decisions about whether a flight can go or not.
My question is meant as a general question, and not implying anything about these particular incidents: until a final reprt comes out with all the details on it, i don't see how anyone can be sure what caused the crashes.
Andy
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Depends on the company, and on the manager. I've had managers try their best to get pilots to fly when they didn't think it was safe. All they cared about was increasing flights, thus revenue, to make themselves look good. I've had managers call a halt to flights when I personally thought the weather was flyable. In this case, I would never argue. In the first case, the pilots have to learn to just say no. It can be difficult, though, unless they all stick together and refuse. I've seen it happen a few times.
Avoid imitations
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In the first case, the pilots have to learn to just say no. It can be difficult, though, unless they all stick together and refuse. I've seen it happen a few times.
I once had some distinctly cold phone conversations with a senior police control room supervisor after he tried to night task us into terrible winter weather conditions to search for two experienced and well-equipped hikers, who were unaccounted for "somewhere in the hills".
At this stage they didn't even have a start point and so we were expected to search something in the region of 400 square miles in the dark. This was in a single pilot, "floppy stick" unstabilised and definitely non-IFR helicopter.
We had already scrubbed one job early that night because of very low cloud and big, heavy snow showers coming in.
The job came in via normal channels and as the pilot, I was asked for advice by the police observers. I immediately confirmed it was unsafe to go because the search area was in hills over 2000 ft high, in a very large and heavy snow storm and dense fog, as reported by the ground units in that area.
As soon as the phone went down, it rang again and it was the supervisor (a chief inspector) trying to persuade me to get airborne because the media were involved! I again refused, He then advised me I could easily fly round the hills to the north and try from that side. I reminded him the weather was totally unsuitable for visual contact flight and that it was unsafe to launch the aircraft, if nothing else on the probability of numbers (lose three and the helicopter looking for two).
He told me he was going to contact the chief pilot the following day. I reminded him that was myself.... He then said he would contact the neighbouring county's ASU and request their assistance, I said "Go ahead!"
He did and they immediately refused to launch, same reasons. He rang me back and said he wanted us to launch; I again refused. He then told me he was going to contact RAF SAR. He did, they also refused the job due to the appalling weather; even the ground units came down off the hills due to the worsening conditions and the threat of them being trapped by snow.
A car belonging to the hikers was later found in a layby, so we had a start point. We eventually did launch into clear air, some two hours later, after midnight, when the snow storms had passed by us. Fifteen miles on we saw the hills ahead still shrouded in a huge snow storm so we returned to base and called it a night. We received a third, sarcastic phone call from the supervisor on our return.
The two hikers (man and son) went back to their car the following day and drove home; they had tented down for the night, eaten, drank and slept well and were perfectly safe and healthy. They were totally unaware of the search until they got home and relatives told them.
I met with the UEO the next day; and I had my say!!
It's easy to be remembered as another sad statistic in this game.
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That's frightning. I guess in the north sea we have a fairly protected flying enviroment - if i was ever put in a situation like that, where i felt i was being put under unreasonable pressure to fly, there are management structures in place that i could use to put in complaints (either by having an off the record conversation, or if it seemed appropriate, an official complaint in writing) against either the individual involved, or the system which allowed the individual to apply that pressure.
I guess there are pros and cons to flying for big companies, but one plus side to working for a larger company is that there isn't any fear of personal come-back if one decides to put in a reasonable complaint. The large management structure and HR dept. can be the source of endless frustration, but it does also offer a large degree of protection.
Andy
I guess there are pros and cons to flying for big companies, but one plus side to working for a larger company is that there isn't any fear of personal come-back if one decides to put in a reasonable complaint. The large management structure and HR dept. can be the source of endless frustration, but it does also offer a large degree of protection.
Andy
Andy Lad,
The "big companies" are made up of small individual operations....where you are within that organization determines if "pressure is applied".
Not once in the North Sea did I ever feel pressured.....in fact the other pilots went out of their way to work together in that regard.
Same company in a very warm place know for its corruption and kidnappings was just the opposite.....but some of the management had no qualms about encouraging one to ignore takeoff minimums or the locally accepted go/no go standard (something about a radio mast and a refinery flare being visible). The TRE/IRE would regularly depart knowing the mast and flare were not in sight then find himself in a pickle getting back home.
The rest of us continued to sit in the tea room and wait for the flare and mast to appear then get going on the days work.
At another operation where bachelor pilots lived in a squalid place known as "Colditz", the CP went ballistic because two of us refused to fly until we could review the Tech Logs (seems the CP and CE had been out on the Piss the night before and slept over) which were under lock and key in the CE's office.
Being "Big" does not cure the ills.
The "big companies" are made up of small individual operations....where you are within that organization determines if "pressure is applied".
Not once in the North Sea did I ever feel pressured.....in fact the other pilots went out of their way to work together in that regard.
Same company in a very warm place know for its corruption and kidnappings was just the opposite.....but some of the management had no qualms about encouraging one to ignore takeoff minimums or the locally accepted go/no go standard (something about a radio mast and a refinery flare being visible). The TRE/IRE would regularly depart knowing the mast and flare were not in sight then find himself in a pickle getting back home.
The rest of us continued to sit in the tea room and wait for the flare and mast to appear then get going on the days work.
At another operation where bachelor pilots lived in a squalid place known as "Colditz", the CP went ballistic because two of us refused to fly until we could review the Tech Logs (seems the CP and CE had been out on the Piss the night before and slept over) which were under lock and key in the CE's office.
Being "Big" does not cure the ills.
No mention of power lines or towers/poles.....?
Lots of witnesses it would appear...
LTE?
Lots of witnesses it would appear...
LTE?
ground personnel heard a gunshot
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The lead NTSB investigator specifically said, in a news interview, that there were no powerlines found in the area. If the witnesses are to be believed (and they seldom can be, completely) there seems to be a couple of possibilities. The fireball from the engine while in flight could have been caused by severely overtemping the engine, or the engine could have simply let go on its own, causing the subsequent events. LTE is certainly a possibility, but it's too early to tell from the skimpy information available. The fireball from the engine may have been simply an illusion. I'm still waiting for the final report before I jump to any conclusions. I don't believe the cause is as self-evident as some have claimed.
I seem to have missed quite a debate while I've been gone.
Now there are a few of the preliminary facts published, at least some idea of what occurred in both instances.
If both accidents continue to be self-explanatory, in hindsight you might confirm your suspicions. But what about every other accident that occurs? Are you suggesting that all accidents follow the same precise formula of cause and outcome? If life were this simple, then we would be able to predict with precise accuracy the nature of every accident, and the specific means of eliminating all risk and accidents.
Unfortunately, accidents and their causes don't follow a formulaic process, which leaves the process of reduction or prevention of accidents with as many solutions as their root causes.
If it were this simple, then all accidents in any specific circumstance would be identical, predictable, and by nature, completely avoidable. I don't see that predictable repetition in any accident study.
A quick browse through any accident database will reveal a myriad of similar accidents with equally random causes. There are certainly some specific traits and those are indeed the ones to address first. But to proclaim that any accident is predictable and self-explanatory is as disengenious as anyone who proclaims they can eliminate all accidents.
Speculate all you want. I don't "stomp my feet" over that part. I do take exception to making assumptive conclusions based on zero knowledge of the occurrence and circumstances.
PS. I am not involved in either of the companies affected.
Now there are a few of the preliminary facts published, at least some idea of what occurred in both instances.
If both accidents continue to be self-explanatory, in hindsight you might confirm your suspicions. But what about every other accident that occurs? Are you suggesting that all accidents follow the same precise formula of cause and outcome? If life were this simple, then we would be able to predict with precise accuracy the nature of every accident, and the specific means of eliminating all risk and accidents.
Unfortunately, accidents and their causes don't follow a formulaic process, which leaves the process of reduction or prevention of accidents with as many solutions as their root causes.
If it were this simple, then all accidents in any specific circumstance would be identical, predictable, and by nature, completely avoidable. I don't see that predictable repetition in any accident study.
A quick browse through any accident database will reveal a myriad of similar accidents with equally random causes. There are certainly some specific traits and those are indeed the ones to address first. But to proclaim that any accident is predictable and self-explanatory is as disengenious as anyone who proclaims they can eliminate all accidents.
Speculate all you want. I don't "stomp my feet" over that part. I do take exception to making assumptive conclusions based on zero knowledge of the occurrence and circumstances.
PS. I am not involved in either of the companies affected.
I'm surprised you guys haven't solved the BA 777 yet!
I am working on it.
Question for Cyclic Hotline (I may have already asked it, but I am too lazy to go back and check) and the rest:
If you (not you specifically because it will never happen to you
, someone else), find yourself, or put yourself in a situation in which you ought not to be and something breaks in the helicopter and causes it to crash, what is the NTSB report going to say?
My bet is mechanical failure and nothing else, with no reference to the fact that the pilot should not have been there in the first place.
And THAT IS more often than not, a common factor to helicopter accidents as of late, in that those accidents are self explanatory.
The problem is that after seeing several of those, we (I) have a tendency to become jaded in our (mine?) judgement, because not enough is being done to solve the real nature of this problem.
However, I do grieve the needless loss of life and destruction of families.
I am working on it.
Question for Cyclic Hotline (I may have already asked it, but I am too lazy to go back and check) and the rest:
If you (not you specifically because it will never happen to you
, someone else), find yourself, or put yourself in a situation in which you ought not to be and something breaks in the helicopter and causes it to crash, what is the NTSB report going to say? My bet is mechanical failure and nothing else, with no reference to the fact that the pilot should not have been there in the first place.
And THAT IS more often than not, a common factor to helicopter accidents as of late, in that those accidents are self explanatory.
The problem is that after seeing several of those, we (I) have a tendency to become jaded in our (mine?) judgement, because not enough is being done to solve the real nature of this problem.
However, I do grieve the needless loss of life and destruction of families.
Last edited by tottigol; 19th Jan 2008 at 21:06.
777 crash cause....self explanatory!
The 777 was not certified for sod landings nor had the crew been trained in off airport landings thus it was an unauthorized, unplanned, improper procedure.
That being said.....a lot of skill and luck all came together at the right time!
The 777 was not certified for sod landings nor had the crew been trained in off airport landings thus it was an unauthorized, unplanned, improper procedure.
That being said.....a lot of skill and luck all came together at the right time!
Thread Starter
8-31-08 US Fatal HEMS crash
AirEvac Life Team 206
GREENSBURG, Ind. -- Three people were killed Sunday afternoon when a medical helicopter went down near Greensburg Sunday afternoon, police said.
The crash happened just before 2 p.m. near County Road 700 West and Base Line Road, just outside of Greensburg, officials with the Decatur County Sheriff’s Department said.
The pilot, a nurse and a medic were killed when the helicopter crashed as it was leaving a fundraiser at the Burney Fire Department, officials said.
No patients were on board the helicopter at the time.
Police said the crew -- who has not been identified -- was about a half a mile into the flight when the helicopter fell from the sky. Witnesses told 6News' Tanya Spencer they say something fall from the aircraft just before it crashed.
Watch 6News at 6 p.m. and refresh this page for updates.
GREENSBURG, Ind. -- Three people were killed Sunday afternoon when a medical helicopter went down near Greensburg Sunday afternoon, police said.
The crash happened just before 2 p.m. near County Road 700 West and Base Line Road, just outside of Greensburg, officials with the Decatur County Sheriff’s Department said.
The pilot, a nurse and a medic were killed when the helicopter crashed as it was leaving a fundraiser at the Burney Fire Department, officials said.
No patients were on board the helicopter at the time.
Police said the crew -- who has not been identified -- was about a half a mile into the flight when the helicopter fell from the sky. Witnesses told 6News' Tanya Spencer they say something fall from the aircraft just before it crashed.
Watch 6News at 6 p.m. and refresh this page for updates.
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taken from the greensburg daily news
Crash that killed 3 still a puzzle
Adam Huening
As the holiday wore on Monday, federal and local crews worked under the hot sun to remove the remnants of a crashed medical helicopter that killed three.
The FAA and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in conjunction with the Decatur County Sheriff’s Department and Indiana State Police worked the crash site in the middle of a corn field about one mile northwest of Burney from sun up until sundown Labor Day, hoping to piece together the puzzle of how the tragedy occurred. Davis Trucking and Recovery of Rushville was called in to do the job of removing the pieces of the demolished helicopter. After loading flat-bed semis and trucks, the Davis crew carried the tarped remains of the air craft away from the site of its demise.
Linda Baker, aviation safety inspector for the FAA, confirmed the pieces would be taken to the Greensburg Municipal Airport for storage. She would not comment on what would happen from that point deferring to the NTSB, which had taken over as the lead investigating agency into the crash. Baker would not lend comment on any speculation as to how the tragedy occurred.
“The investigation is too premature with the recovery efforts nearing an end,” Baker said.
She wouldn’t comment if the site had been cleared or how many agencies were working to piece together a cause that led to the crash of the Air Evac Lifeteam helicopter shortly after take off from the Burney Antique Tractor Pull and Hog Roast. The three-member crew was on a public relations mission at the annual fundraiser.
Baker noted the investigation into the crash could take weeks, if not months, to determine.
Calls seeking comment from the FAA and NTSB went unanswered. Recordings noted the offices were closed due to the holiday.
An official statement from the Decatur County Coroner’s office noted the Burney Volunteer Fire Department notified the county of the incident at 1:21 p.m. Sunday. An autopsy on all three bodies was expected to be performed this morning, the release states.
The names of the crew members were confirmed by Air Evac, which has a base in Rushville, through GDN news partner WISH TV 8. The three-member crew included pilot Roger Warren, flight nurse Sandra Pearson, and flight paramedic and Base Manager Wade Weston. A message to Air Evac membership headquarters seeking further information on the deceased went unanswered Monday, but the GDN learned from the Richmond and Cambridge City newspapers Weston was a resident of Cambridge City.
The emergency responder community was still reeling after the incident that took three of its own. Brad Smith, CEO of Rush Memorial Hospital, said the organization was at a loss over the deaths.
“I can say that we are all deeply saddened and devastated by the tragic loss of Roger, Wade and Sandi,” Smith said in a statement. “They were young, at the top of their field, highly-trained and dedicated individuals. They were like family to us and will be missed in so many ways by so many people. Our community needs to rally around and support Air Evac and the families of these three individuals during this very difficult time. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families and friends.”
Smith also said the events that brought Air Evac into their community were rocky at times, and he applauded everyone at the company for dedication and perseverance. The ironic fact that these three lives were lost in a trauma situation was not lost on Smith.
“Numerous lives were saved in Rush County by the people who lost their lives in Sunday’s crash. We sometimes take for granted our local organizations such as Air Evac, EMS, fire and police, yet they are truly the heroes of our community,” Smith said in his statement.
Crash that killed 3 still a puzzle
Adam Huening
As the holiday wore on Monday, federal and local crews worked under the hot sun to remove the remnants of a crashed medical helicopter that killed three.
The FAA and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in conjunction with the Decatur County Sheriff’s Department and Indiana State Police worked the crash site in the middle of a corn field about one mile northwest of Burney from sun up until sundown Labor Day, hoping to piece together the puzzle of how the tragedy occurred. Davis Trucking and Recovery of Rushville was called in to do the job of removing the pieces of the demolished helicopter. After loading flat-bed semis and trucks, the Davis crew carried the tarped remains of the air craft away from the site of its demise.
Linda Baker, aviation safety inspector for the FAA, confirmed the pieces would be taken to the Greensburg Municipal Airport for storage. She would not comment on what would happen from that point deferring to the NTSB, which had taken over as the lead investigating agency into the crash. Baker would not lend comment on any speculation as to how the tragedy occurred.
“The investigation is too premature with the recovery efforts nearing an end,” Baker said.
She wouldn’t comment if the site had been cleared or how many agencies were working to piece together a cause that led to the crash of the Air Evac Lifeteam helicopter shortly after take off from the Burney Antique Tractor Pull and Hog Roast. The three-member crew was on a public relations mission at the annual fundraiser.
Baker noted the investigation into the crash could take weeks, if not months, to determine.
Calls seeking comment from the FAA and NTSB went unanswered. Recordings noted the offices were closed due to the holiday.
An official statement from the Decatur County Coroner’s office noted the Burney Volunteer Fire Department notified the county of the incident at 1:21 p.m. Sunday. An autopsy on all three bodies was expected to be performed this morning, the release states.
The names of the crew members were confirmed by Air Evac, which has a base in Rushville, through GDN news partner WISH TV 8. The three-member crew included pilot Roger Warren, flight nurse Sandra Pearson, and flight paramedic and Base Manager Wade Weston. A message to Air Evac membership headquarters seeking further information on the deceased went unanswered Monday, but the GDN learned from the Richmond and Cambridge City newspapers Weston was a resident of Cambridge City.
The emergency responder community was still reeling after the incident that took three of its own. Brad Smith, CEO of Rush Memorial Hospital, said the organization was at a loss over the deaths.
“I can say that we are all deeply saddened and devastated by the tragic loss of Roger, Wade and Sandi,” Smith said in a statement. “They were young, at the top of their field, highly-trained and dedicated individuals. They were like family to us and will be missed in so many ways by so many people. Our community needs to rally around and support Air Evac and the families of these three individuals during this very difficult time. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families and friends.”
Smith also said the events that brought Air Evac into their community were rocky at times, and he applauded everyone at the company for dedication and perseverance. The ironic fact that these three lives were lost in a trauma situation was not lost on Smith.
“Numerous lives were saved in Rush County by the people who lost their lives in Sunday’s crash. We sometimes take for granted our local organizations such as Air Evac, EMS, fire and police, yet they are truly the heroes of our community,” Smith said in his statement.
Thread Starter
Update on AEL crash
Sheriff: Main rotor came off medical helicopter
Associated Press - September 2, 2008 12:04 PM ET
BURNEY, Ind. (AP) - The Decatur County sheriff says the main rotor of a medical helicopter came off before the craft crashed into a farm field, killing three crew members.
Sheriff Daryl Templeton told The Associated Press Tuesday that the rotor was found 320 yards away from the rest of the wreckage from Sunday's crash.
Witnesses have told investigators that the helicopter's nose tipped down before it crashed and exploded in the field near the town of Burney, about 40 miles southeast of Indianapolis.
An official cause of the crash is not expected to be released until the National Transportation Safety Board completes its investigation.
The Air Evac Lifeteam helicopter was not carrying a patient when it crashed. It had been at an event for a volunteer fire department and crashed as it was returning to its base in nearby Rushville.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Associated Press - September 2, 2008 12:04 PM ET
BURNEY, Ind. (AP) - The Decatur County sheriff says the main rotor of a medical helicopter came off before the craft crashed into a farm field, killing three crew members.
Sheriff Daryl Templeton told The Associated Press Tuesday that the rotor was found 320 yards away from the rest of the wreckage from Sunday's crash.
Witnesses have told investigators that the helicopter's nose tipped down before it crashed and exploded in the field near the town of Burney, about 40 miles southeast of Indianapolis.
An official cause of the crash is not expected to be released until the National Transportation Safety Board completes its investigation.
The Air Evac Lifeteam helicopter was not carrying a patient when it crashed. It had been at an event for a volunteer fire department and crashed as it was returning to its base in nearby Rushville.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Thread Starter
Local reaction to crash
'No fly zone' sought after chopper crash
Updated: Sep 4, 2008 04:52 PM CDT
Ken Masters
Rich Van Wyk/Eyewitness News
Rushville - Rush County commissioners and the county hospital are at odds over the safety of its helicopter service and how quickly flights should resume in the wake of a deadly crash. The commissioners want the county to be a "no fly zone" for Air Evac Lifeteam.
Until Air Evac Lifeteam proves their aircraft are safe, the Rush County commissioners don't want them flying here.
In a letter to the county hospital and Air Evac Lifeteam, the commissioners wrote that Sunday's crash which killed three crew members "raised great safety concerns in the potential issues of aircraft reliability and maintenance."
They requested an immediate suspension of flights "to ensure the safety of the residents of Rushville and Rush County."
"Two weeks to thirty days, for them, to get everything serviced out, just to make sure things are right," said Ken Masters, Rush County commissioner.
The helicopter fell to the ground after taking off from a fundraiser in Decatur County. All three crew members died. Federal investigators determined the craft's rotor blades detached before the crash.
The chopper was based at the Rush County Memorial Hospital, taking off and landing from a heavily populated residential and business area just a few blocks from the center of Rushville.
"Say they lifted off at the hospital here and maybe went just 40 or 50 or 100 yards. There could have been a lot more fatalities," said Masters.
Air Evac voluntarily suspended Indiana flight operations after the crash, surprised by the county's request, the county hospital and the company issued a joint reply.
"Air Evac Lifeteam is in complete compliance with FAA-regulated maintenance and inspection programs," wrote Seth Myers, Air Evac Lifeteam president. "We are committed to the residents we serve in Indiana and will be returning these bases to operation soon."
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Updated: Sep 4, 2008 04:52 PM CDT
Ken Masters
Rich Van Wyk/Eyewitness News
Rushville - Rush County commissioners and the county hospital are at odds over the safety of its helicopter service and how quickly flights should resume in the wake of a deadly crash. The commissioners want the county to be a "no fly zone" for Air Evac Lifeteam.
Until Air Evac Lifeteam proves their aircraft are safe, the Rush County commissioners don't want them flying here.
In a letter to the county hospital and Air Evac Lifeteam, the commissioners wrote that Sunday's crash which killed three crew members "raised great safety concerns in the potential issues of aircraft reliability and maintenance."
They requested an immediate suspension of flights "to ensure the safety of the residents of Rushville and Rush County."
"Two weeks to thirty days, for them, to get everything serviced out, just to make sure things are right," said Ken Masters, Rush County commissioner.
The helicopter fell to the ground after taking off from a fundraiser in Decatur County. All three crew members died. Federal investigators determined the craft's rotor blades detached before the crash.
The chopper was based at the Rush County Memorial Hospital, taking off and landing from a heavily populated residential and business area just a few blocks from the center of Rushville.
"Say they lifted off at the hospital here and maybe went just 40 or 50 or 100 yards. There could have been a lot more fatalities," said Masters.
Air Evac voluntarily suspended Indiana flight operations after the crash, surprised by the county's request, the county hospital and the company issued a joint reply.
"Air Evac Lifeteam is in complete compliance with FAA-regulated maintenance and inspection programs," wrote Seth Myers, Air Evac Lifeteam president. "We are committed to the residents we serve in Indiana and will be returning these bases to operation soon."
All content © Copyright 2002 - 2008 WorldNow and WTHR. All Rights Reserved.
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From what I'm seeing and hearing, it looks like a blade failure. That's about as common as a wing falling off an airplane, and hasn't happened before on a 206, AFAIK. TT straps yes, but not blades, and no TT straps have failed in decades. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ASB or something similar from Bell on this in the near future. I'm hoping this is one of those 'out of the blue' incidents which are never duplicated.
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I am not sure they can do that. Oversight of AEL operations rests with the FAA. If the FAA does not see the need for AEL aircraft to be grounded, I don't think a county has any legal leg to stand on to impose this "no fly zone". Besides, how do they expect to impose it without inviting a lawsuit?
Knee jerk reaction again.
Alt3.
Knee jerk reaction again.
Alt3.