Family helicopter.
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Family helicopter.
Sounds silly I know, but I'd like to know which one would be best? For instance, there's me, wife and three kids of various ages all growing up fast. So, if I was going to purchase a helicopter for the primary purpose of transporting said crew plus baggage for a weekend away plus fuel for a decent trip, which single could do this?
Would the B206 be ok, would the Ec120 be overkill or not up to it? I also like the look of the Enstrom 480, would that be up to it?
Apols if this is a repost; I have read through the various helicopter type threads, but haven't come across this particular conundrum.
Also; how many hours as PPL(h) do I need to get insurance cover to do this?
Thanks to you knowledgeable types!
Rotormotor.
Would the B206 be ok, would the Ec120 be overkill or not up to it? I also like the look of the Enstrom 480, would that be up to it?
Apols if this is a repost; I have read through the various helicopter type threads, but haven't come across this particular conundrum.
Also; how many hours as PPL(h) do I need to get insurance cover to do this?
Thanks to you knowledgeable types!
Rotormotor.
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From the family point of view I would recommend the EC120.
One of my former bosses had one. I flew it for about 1 year.
It's a nice and quite maschine. The kids dont have to wear headsets all the time. It has a huge cargo compartment that can carry a lot of kids stuff besides the Golfbags.
I can say nothing about the insurance, sorry.
Spencer17
One of my former bosses had one. I flew it for about 1 year.
It's a nice and quite maschine. The kids dont have to wear headsets all the time. It has a huge cargo compartment that can carry a lot of kids stuff besides the Golfbags.
I can say nothing about the insurance, sorry.
Spencer17
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Go for an AS350 (single Squirrel). Older ones well maintained are very reliable too and can look new with a good paint and trim - from £350k - £400k. B206 good solid plodder but starting to get cramped for 3 in the back, slower and noisier. B407 much more expensive to buy than older AS350 so probably unrealistic for first turbine.
With AS350 plenty of baggage space and scope for 6 people with 4 in the back, or great comfort for 3 in the back. Big front doors for rear access safer too than rear doors, which sooner or later will not be closed properly or have belts left hanging out! Easy and quiet to fly with just 30 sec shutdown too.
There are a few around with autopilots which is a big benefit, though you'll trade payload. Even base 350 powerful enough for family use, though B2 and B3 mean you can fill both tanks and pax up. At a price though - as ever, you get what you pay for!
With AS350 plenty of baggage space and scope for 6 people with 4 in the back, or great comfort for 3 in the back. Big front doors for rear access safer too than rear doors, which sooner or later will not be closed properly or have belts left hanging out! Easy and quiet to fly with just 30 sec shutdown too.
There are a few around with autopilots which is a big benefit, though you'll trade payload. Even base 350 powerful enough for family use, though B2 and B3 mean you can fill both tanks and pax up. At a price though - as ever, you get what you pay for!
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Thanks for the replies guys (and gals), I appreciate them.
Goodgrief: Never thought of the Long Ranger, will consider.
Spencer17: What's not to like about the 120? Strong contender on the quiet front.
Barnzie/Rotorspeed: Didn't consider the As350, thought they'd be too big and powerful for a low hours PPL, but will have a look.
Docstone: Even though I didn't mention it initially I do keep looking at the 407 on the Bell website; it certainly serves well in its military guise doesn't it? Hmmm, deep thought.
Poor old 480 just never seemed to figure....
Thanks again everybody, this has certainly helped to polarise my thinking. I'll give the thread a bump when I've (finally) decided.
Rotormotor.
Goodgrief: Never thought of the Long Ranger, will consider.
Spencer17: What's not to like about the 120? Strong contender on the quiet front.
Barnzie/Rotorspeed: Didn't consider the As350, thought they'd be too big and powerful for a low hours PPL, but will have a look.
Docstone: Even though I didn't mention it initially I do keep looking at the 407 on the Bell website; it certainly serves well in its military guise doesn't it? Hmmm, deep thought.
Poor old 480 just never seemed to figure....
Thanks again everybody, this has certainly helped to polarise my thinking. I'll give the thread a bump when I've (finally) decided.
Rotormotor.
Last edited by Rotormotor; 15th Dec 2007 at 09:03. Reason: Forgot the gals - sorry...
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@Rotormotor. It could have a little more power. The AS350 Squirrel is a great maschine but fuel consumption compared to the EC is much higher. The EC has the best cargo space of all.
@docstone. Never had any problems with aft cyclic. Ok where power is an issue the Squirrel is the better choice but as family ship the EC will do a really good job. Only look at the huge cargo space.
@Rotorspeed. Where does the Squirrel have "plenty of baggage space"??
Spencer17
@docstone. Never had any problems with aft cyclic. Ok where power is an issue the Squirrel is the better choice but as family ship the EC will do a really good job. Only look at the huge cargo space.
@Rotorspeed. Where does the Squirrel have "plenty of baggage space"??
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Comparing the as350 to the 407
350 has more baggage space, two side & one rear lockers (407 has one rear)
More comfort for pax in the 350 (you don't have to face backwards and intertwine your legs).
You are all in the same room so to speak in the 350, the 407 is the same layout as the 206, you are separated from the rear pax, could be good if you want to get away from the kids, but I don't like it, can't see if every one is buckled in or behaving.
The 350 seats are more comfortable in my opinion, 407 has no lumber support.
The 407 is a little faster, but how much of a hurry are you in anyway?
From what I hear, the EC120 is under powered, well they are a sporty looking comparison to the 206 power wise.
My choice would be the AS350BA, sure you could get a B2 OR B3 but a BA would do you fine, if it is within your budget.
You can get a double front pax seat if you needed to seat 6 pax.
Just my observations and opinions.
oh, for starting I guess the 407 and B3 would be the easiest as they pretty much start them selves with a flick of the switch, you have to modulate the BA,B2, but it's a no brainer really.
350 has more baggage space, two side & one rear lockers (407 has one rear)
More comfort for pax in the 350 (you don't have to face backwards and intertwine your legs).
You are all in the same room so to speak in the 350, the 407 is the same layout as the 206, you are separated from the rear pax, could be good if you want to get away from the kids, but I don't like it, can't see if every one is buckled in or behaving.
The 350 seats are more comfortable in my opinion, 407 has no lumber support.
The 407 is a little faster, but how much of a hurry are you in anyway?
From what I hear, the EC120 is under powered, well they are a sporty looking comparison to the 206 power wise.
My choice would be the AS350BA, sure you could get a B2 OR B3 but a BA would do you fine, if it is within your budget.
You can get a double front pax seat if you needed to seat 6 pax.
Just my observations and opinions.
oh, for starting I guess the 407 and B3 would be the easiest as they pretty much start them selves with a flick of the switch, you have to modulate the BA,B2, but it's a no brainer really.
Last edited by skidbiter2; 13th Dec 2007 at 23:34.
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"The 407 is a little faster.."
It is faster than the BA and B2, but not the B3. Gotto compare apples with apples.
I would say it all depends on what experience you have. If you're a 500+ hr pilot the 407 or AS350 would be good, but if you have les experience than that they might be a handfull. Unless you fly with a safety pilot until you gain more experience.
My personal choise would have to be a BA as skidbiter2 sugested.
Don't get me wrong, the EC120 is a great heli, but people expect that they can fill up with feul, full pax and some luggage. Not possible in my experience unless the people are all under 65kg.
Just my 2c
It is faster than the BA and B2, but not the B3. Gotto compare apples with apples.
I would say it all depends on what experience you have. If you're a 500+ hr pilot the 407 or AS350 would be good, but if you have les experience than that they might be a handfull. Unless you fly with a safety pilot until you gain more experience.
My personal choise would have to be a BA as skidbiter2 sugested.
Don't get me wrong, the EC120 is a great heli, but people expect that they can fill up with feul, full pax and some luggage. Not possible in my experience unless the people are all under 65kg.
Just my 2c
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Skidbiter2; thanks for that, great insight that I didn't have before, practical and to the point.
Heli redeye; it may drive the question from your point of view, but I am not looking at it that way right now. I hesitated to ask this question, but having spoken to various sales-people I came away even more confused, and filled with 'the other one is rubbish because....' type answers. Which often contained information that didn't answer my simple question, and because of my low hours and low experience I didn't understand.
What I didn't want to do was pop on here with many questions that you for instance may consider trivial. So I read all the relevant threads, on this and other forums, that I could find, but was just left with the title of this thread.
What I keep hearing is that Eurocopter support is not up to the support of Bell. I even e-mailed Eurocopter asking why they didn't power upgrade the Ec120, but they didn't answer.
So; heart pulls me toward the EC120 - I saw a metallic blue one static at Cambridge airport and it looked fantastic - but head is saying Bell because of the support.
I admit that I am not yet in the position that you are. I can't make instant, well-judged buying decisions about helicopters based on experience, at least not yet.
So when I've got the why's and wherefore's properly sorted in my head I'll come back with the money questions.
Thanks again for all the replys and the PM's too,
regards,
Rotormotor.
Heli redeye; it may drive the question from your point of view, but I am not looking at it that way right now. I hesitated to ask this question, but having spoken to various sales-people I came away even more confused, and filled with 'the other one is rubbish because....' type answers. Which often contained information that didn't answer my simple question, and because of my low hours and low experience I didn't understand.
What I didn't want to do was pop on here with many questions that you for instance may consider trivial. So I read all the relevant threads, on this and other forums, that I could find, but was just left with the title of this thread.
What I keep hearing is that Eurocopter support is not up to the support of Bell. I even e-mailed Eurocopter asking why they didn't power upgrade the Ec120, but they didn't answer.
So; heart pulls me toward the EC120 - I saw a metallic blue one static at Cambridge airport and it looked fantastic - but head is saying Bell because of the support.
I admit that I am not yet in the position that you are. I can't make instant, well-judged buying decisions about helicopters based on experience, at least not yet.
So when I've got the why's and wherefore's properly sorted in my head I'll come back with the money questions.
Thanks again for all the replys and the PM's too,
regards,
Rotormotor.
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Sir,
You having asked this question probably means that you can indeed afford it, although maint and fuel will probably piss you off depending on how much you can afford it if you get my meaning.
As far as storage is concerned if you want ski's or shovels or what-not, you can order a basket for any 350 without cheeks from DART in Canada.
It has a roomy cabin and everyone can see each other. Any 350 with a french engine will suck fuel HUGE! I don't know if they are certified in UK but the lycomings are quite efficient, and the newer 600-700 FX's are just as powerful as the B2 with less fuel burn and parts are cheaper.
The EC 120 is a great overall machine, faster than any 206 model, but power is an issue when trying to Vertical out of a spot anywhere near gross weight. It will vertical out if you have "quiet" hands but it Translates very poorly. VERY POORLY. The baggage compartment is a huge plus but you may or not have w+b issues if not paying attention. Spare parts for the VEMD are very hard to get, but for a low timer very easy to use pilot wise. Great safety characteristics, and easy on fuel, and alot faster than a 206 or 206 L. Do a W+B and you can even take out the aft cargo door to haul longer cargo.
An L4 will serve you very well and considerably cheaper than a 407. Both can vertical out quite well. Obviously the 407 quite faster. You should be able to get a basket for the 407 as well.
As far as maintenance is concerned make sure you find out who services which machines in your area. Go talk to some of their private clients and see how things measure up. Also take into account how many hours you will be flying in any given period. If you take this under consideration it can possibly relieve you of any worries regarding support issues timewise.
Lastly, if you are buying a Eurocopter they may be able to serve you better if you buy in to a maintenance program. Not enough room here but you should ask. It will make some of your more expensive components a little easier to handle should you have issues while sucking a little more out of you for each hour flown.
Good luck sir.
PS
Can you afford a Pilot LOL
You having asked this question probably means that you can indeed afford it, although maint and fuel will probably piss you off depending on how much you can afford it if you get my meaning.
As far as storage is concerned if you want ski's or shovels or what-not, you can order a basket for any 350 without cheeks from DART in Canada.
It has a roomy cabin and everyone can see each other. Any 350 with a french engine will suck fuel HUGE! I don't know if they are certified in UK but the lycomings are quite efficient, and the newer 600-700 FX's are just as powerful as the B2 with less fuel burn and parts are cheaper.
The EC 120 is a great overall machine, faster than any 206 model, but power is an issue when trying to Vertical out of a spot anywhere near gross weight. It will vertical out if you have "quiet" hands but it Translates very poorly. VERY POORLY. The baggage compartment is a huge plus but you may or not have w+b issues if not paying attention. Spare parts for the VEMD are very hard to get, but for a low timer very easy to use pilot wise. Great safety characteristics, and easy on fuel, and alot faster than a 206 or 206 L. Do a W+B and you can even take out the aft cargo door to haul longer cargo.
An L4 will serve you very well and considerably cheaper than a 407. Both can vertical out quite well. Obviously the 407 quite faster. You should be able to get a basket for the 407 as well.
As far as maintenance is concerned make sure you find out who services which machines in your area. Go talk to some of their private clients and see how things measure up. Also take into account how many hours you will be flying in any given period. If you take this under consideration it can possibly relieve you of any worries regarding support issues timewise.
Lastly, if you are buying a Eurocopter they may be able to serve you better if you buy in to a maintenance program. Not enough room here but you should ask. It will make some of your more expensive components a little easier to handle should you have issues while sucking a little more out of you for each hour flown.
Good luck sir.
PS
Can you afford a Pilot LOL
If " Self flown" Think of 206L-2 LongRanger, AS 350 Astar or perhaps a AS355 Twinstar if "overwater" is a consideration. Easy to fly - not too complicated - various models available for not "too" much money.
If money is no object the field is open - a call to marketing depts of various manufactures should produce flights in all helicopters you are interested in.
I vote S-92 - if money is really no object.
If money is no object the field is open - a call to marketing depts of various manufactures should produce flights in all helicopters you are interested in.
I vote S-92 - if money is really no object.
Lots of people on here dismiss the JetRanger as a kind of 'yesterday machine', but having owned one for 5 years, it's been a great machine for me. If you intend only to use it with all 5 of the family up, there probably are other machines out there that can do the job better, although they WILL cost you more. The one thing I've leaerned in owning helicopters is that they cost more than the guy who sold it to you said it will!! So make sure you have deep pockets, not just for the purchase....
And if you think that you might - like me - travel round on your own from time to time (hell! flying is fun!), then don't surround yourself with even more seats: my rough rule of thumb is that costs increase directly in line with the number of seats. Depending on how old your kids are, I'd only contemplate an EC120 or a B206: there's nothing in your mission profile that tells me you need any more helicopter.
And if you think that you might - like me - travel round on your own from time to time (hell! flying is fun!), then don't surround yourself with even more seats: my rough rule of thumb is that costs increase directly in line with the number of seats. Depending on how old your kids are, I'd only contemplate an EC120 or a B206: there's nothing in your mission profile that tells me you need any more helicopter.
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Again, a great set of replies guys (and gals -apols to the Whirling ones!), I'm humbled and also gaining in knowledge by the day
Backward Blade: Great post Sir! And great info. There are a lot of other factors other than the basic buy-in price, as you have pointed out, and a fool and his/her money are easily parted at any price point, especially in aviation. Which is why I asked Pprune for its wisdom.
Thanks for the 120 gen, I need to hear it because I keep going gooey around them. I have to say that although Eurocopter seem to be more modern than Bell, I am favouring the latter at the moment. I am formulating what I think is a good idea, which I will share soon, and it does favour Bell, L4, or 206B.
Thanks for the piloting offer, maybe when I'm about to buy Eurocopter! LOL.
Albatross: (can't get John Cleese out of my head now "Allll-ba-trosss!") It will be self-flown though 'over-the-water' not really an issue, as yet. S-92, yeah right, I'll get one for ferrying me to the Falcon 9 series.....As if..
As to flights; so far I have paxed in a B206, an EC120, and an As350. To be honest I liked them all, and wasn't aware of the 206 feeling 'old'. But the 350 felt considerably quicker and fair belted up into the blue. As said the 120 was the quietest, but I loved the Jetbox 'wocky-wocky' sound. I have spoken to all the respective sales reps, and I have to say the best case was made by the Bell rep for a new 206!
206Jock: I haven't dismissed it, and I think you have my mission profile bang on. Yes I have to have the capability of taking the tribe, but I reckon it will be mostly me, or me and a chum. Which leads me to the most pertinent question to move me on in my quest: Could the 206 take five of us? And how far?
Thanks again to all for taking the time to answer, much appreciated.
Rotormotor.
Backward Blade: Great post Sir! And great info. There are a lot of other factors other than the basic buy-in price, as you have pointed out, and a fool and his/her money are easily parted at any price point, especially in aviation. Which is why I asked Pprune for its wisdom.
Thanks for the 120 gen, I need to hear it because I keep going gooey around them. I have to say that although Eurocopter seem to be more modern than Bell, I am favouring the latter at the moment. I am formulating what I think is a good idea, which I will share soon, and it does favour Bell, L4, or 206B.
Thanks for the piloting offer, maybe when I'm about to buy Eurocopter! LOL.
Albatross: (can't get John Cleese out of my head now "Allll-ba-trosss!") It will be self-flown though 'over-the-water' not really an issue, as yet. S-92, yeah right, I'll get one for ferrying me to the Falcon 9 series.....As if..
As to flights; so far I have paxed in a B206, an EC120, and an As350. To be honest I liked them all, and wasn't aware of the 206 feeling 'old'. But the 350 felt considerably quicker and fair belted up into the blue. As said the 120 was the quietest, but I loved the Jetbox 'wocky-wocky' sound. I have spoken to all the respective sales reps, and I have to say the best case was made by the Bell rep for a new 206!
206Jock: I haven't dismissed it, and I think you have my mission profile bang on. Yes I have to have the capability of taking the tribe, but I reckon it will be mostly me, or me and a chum. Which leads me to the most pertinent question to move me on in my quest: Could the 206 take five of us? And how far?
Thanks again to all for taking the time to answer, much appreciated.
Rotormotor.
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A 206 B weighs in the neighborhood of 2000 pounds, leaving you with
about 1200 pounds to play with between fuel and payload. A 206 is
going to burn about 200 PPH of fuel. Money no object: Bell 407. I am
fortunate to fly it, and at full fuel, I still have 1200 pounds for payload.
It performs at gross weight about the same as when i'm by myself.
Reliable and a hoot to fly. My 2 cents.
about 1200 pounds to play with between fuel and payload. A 206 is
going to burn about 200 PPH of fuel. Money no object: Bell 407. I am
fortunate to fly it, and at full fuel, I still have 1200 pounds for payload.
It performs at gross weight about the same as when i'm by myself.
Reliable and a hoot to fly. My 2 cents.
My current 206 is a light one (sub 1800lbs), and with three variety-sized kids and if you and the missus aren't too blobby, you can take easily enough fuel for 2.5 hours, which will get you the thick end of 300 miles.
A new 206 is a nice machine: I'm just going through the motions of bringing in a 1983 machine whose airframe has been compeltely refurbished and most components zero-timed. I'm hoping to enjoy the "joy of new" feeling on a machine that won't make my eyes water too much!
If you hurry up, you can still bring into the UK via Denmark VAT-free (if it's a personal machine).
A new 206 is a nice machine: I'm just going through the motions of bringing in a 1983 machine whose airframe has been compeltely refurbished and most components zero-timed. I'm hoping to enjoy the "joy of new" feeling on a machine that won't make my eyes water too much!
If you hurry up, you can still bring into the UK via Denmark VAT-free (if it's a personal machine).
A wise man once told me: If buying an aircraft for personal use, try and buy one with 2 extra seats than you'll regularly be using. (ie for regular trips for a family of five, buy a 7 seater.)
Also, helicopters with a 'combined cabin' (ie AS350/5, EC120, EC130) tend to be more popular with families.
Just my 2c.
Also, helicopters with a 'combined cabin' (ie AS350/5, EC120, EC130) tend to be more popular with families.
Just my 2c.