AS350 Nutter in NI
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This is one of the most interesting threads I have read for ages! I have to admit the footage at first looks damning, but I really think we have all been a little too hasty in our judgement. Experience must tell you that there are so many factors that could cause this type of loss of control, ranging from an inexperienced pilot showing off, to an aircraft malfunction. One thing that does spring to mind is the possibility of control interference. I have been piloting a helicopter on short finals to a landing site, when my own bl00dy co-pilot got his foot stuck on one of the pedals, so I wouldnt rule out the idea of a heli unaware passenger doing the same. Although no-where near as dramatic as this, it could have been. Is it possible that dual controls were fitted and there was the chance someone in the front turned round to take a pic or speak to the person behind them, and jammed their foot forward inadvertently? Maybe, maybe not, but we should not be so quick to judge just yet, as reality can often be very different from first appearances.
Still - gotta admit though, I would love to hear the pilots story!
Still - gotta admit though, I would love to hear the pilots story!
Horror: come off it. There was only one person involved in the way that heli jumped into the air and wavered on the edge of disaster, and it wasn't a passenger.
Look at the site - the pilot's first mistake was landing there in the first place. Then look at the lift-off - no power check. And a leap into the air that defies description.
EEJIT.
Look at the site - the pilot's first mistake was landing there in the first place. Then look at the lift-off - no power check. And a leap into the air that defies description.
EEJIT.
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Senior Pilot's previous advice still holds good.
It is perfectly acceptable to take totally opposing viewpoints, but let's keep the discussion rational and not get personal.
If you want to debate what you think might have happened, then please do just that. Personal opinions on the character of the pilot involved are purely that, in the abscence of an account from him/her which would vindicate or damn them, and we don't really need to see them aired here.
Discussing possible scenarios can be educational and raise awareness, and also bring in posters with expertise to further explore the issues we all want to hear more about.
Abuse and personal attacks don't help at all.
Onwards and upwards .....
It is perfectly acceptable to take totally opposing viewpoints, but let's keep the discussion rational and not get personal.
If you want to debate what you think might have happened, then please do just that. Personal opinions on the character of the pilot involved are purely that, in the abscence of an account from him/her which would vindicate or damn them, and we don't really need to see them aired here.
Discussing possible scenarios can be educational and raise awareness, and also bring in posters with expertise to further explore the issues we all want to hear more about.
Abuse and personal attacks don't help at all.
Onwards and upwards .....
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Considering they were (very) newlyweds being lifted away, is it not possible they were "getting jiggy" in the back and the weight and balance was thrown all over the place? 
Or perhaps the pilot was temporarily blinded by flying underwear...
Si
Or perhaps the pilot was temporarily blinded by flying underwear...
Si
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Just my humble opinion but it seems that it was a tad windy on the day (you can hear it on the microphone and see it in the clothes being blown about).
I think our chap wanted to do a spiralling take off. Nothing unusual in that, I have done a few myself in the dim and distant past. It all seemed to go wrong when he got his 'chopper' above the barn and into the main wind. It looks like he ran out of tail rotor authority and started windmilling before he could recover.
The 'instinctive' reaction is to hoik in the power, somewhat exacerbating the problem as you have no pedal left to arrest the turn. After a short while the 'forward' airspeed helps him out a bit and he gets it under control.
A huge brown trousers moment and, to be honest, one that I would be mightily embarresed about if it were me. However, look at the punters on the ground, they think it is all part of the game plan! Who'd of thought it.
W2P
I think our chap wanted to do a spiralling take off. Nothing unusual in that, I have done a few myself in the dim and distant past. It all seemed to go wrong when he got his 'chopper' above the barn and into the main wind. It looks like he ran out of tail rotor authority and started windmilling before he could recover.
The 'instinctive' reaction is to hoik in the power, somewhat exacerbating the problem as you have no pedal left to arrest the turn. After a short while the 'forward' airspeed helps him out a bit and he gets it under control.
A huge brown trousers moment and, to be honest, one that I would be mightily embarresed about if it were me. However, look at the punters on the ground, they think it is all part of the game plan! Who'd of thought it.
W2P
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Back to rampant semi-informed speculation- Having been on dispersal next to a B2 that inadvertently lifted without hydraulics on (collective lock not engaged properly during hyd test) I don't think he would have got that far airborne.
I'm also pretty sure B2/3s don't suffer from LTE as much as say-206s. granted the wind was strong above the trees, depends on the direction however for LTE.
Saying that, the last thing he had was yaw control until the large nose down to get airspeed up. Can you get 'servo lock' in Yaw? Be interesting to find out the AUW and power margin...
As for the landing site- how much room do you need???? Admittedly a fair potential for downwash induced FOD, but fairly good tip clearance and at least he tried to take off into wind.
My vote is someone got caught out by a number of factors he hadn't seen before in that combination, added to the 'pressure' of taking off in front of a crowd. The old formula- pilot+crowd [Can] = problems.
Previous posters overlook one fact- he DID recover the aircraft from the initial stuff up and managed to keep it together to flyover again
personally I would have been pooping pants after that and departed on track a long way above the ground.
I'm also pretty sure B2/3s don't suffer from LTE as much as say-206s. granted the wind was strong above the trees, depends on the direction however for LTE.
Saying that, the last thing he had was yaw control until the large nose down to get airspeed up. Can you get 'servo lock' in Yaw? Be interesting to find out the AUW and power margin...
As for the landing site- how much room do you need???? Admittedly a fair potential for downwash induced FOD, but fairly good tip clearance and at least he tried to take off into wind.
My vote is someone got caught out by a number of factors he hadn't seen before in that combination, added to the 'pressure' of taking off in front of a crowd. The old formula- pilot+crowd [Can] = problems.
Previous posters overlook one fact- he DID recover the aircraft from the initial stuff up and managed to keep it together to flyover again
personally I would have been pooping pants after that and departed on track a long way above the ground.
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You beat me to my point. I dont know how anyone could have lte in a B3, in the conditions shown in the video. The roofs would be blowing off the buildings showing us wind gusts that would effect a b3 to take off like that. That machine would not have seen more than 85 % on take off with 5 200 lb guys on board and full fuel! Hydraulics off with the collective not locked does appear to be far more plausible, and if that is the case (dumb) but a good job saving it...as they are complete bears to wrestle.
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Some of the posts in this thread show Rotorheads at it's worst and do no credit to a fine forum.
Unless there was a malfunction it looks like the pilot made some mistakes. If he did, he isn't the first and he won't be the last.
Maybe it was 99% luck and 1% judgement, but he recovered it and nobody got hurt but instead of being allowed to learn from it quietly, we get someone who posts a link to the video AND posted the reg. (Now removed either by him or the mods.)
Southern Xross says he did it because "crucial that this kind of flying be made public."
Well he achieved his aim. Now it's on the biggest rotary site on the net and on Sky News as well as YouTube.
Is that public enough?
The person who posted it on the You Tube probably did it without realising what a stir it would cause.
SC knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to cause maximum trouble for another pilot, and the same goes for some of the other Irish posters.
Unless there was a malfunction it looks like the pilot made some mistakes. If he did, he isn't the first and he won't be the last.
Maybe it was 99% luck and 1% judgement, but he recovered it and nobody got hurt but instead of being allowed to learn from it quietly, we get someone who posts a link to the video AND posted the reg. (Now removed either by him or the mods.)
Southern Xross says he did it because "crucial that this kind of flying be made public."
Well he achieved his aim. Now it's on the biggest rotary site on the net and on Sky News as well as YouTube.
Is that public enough?
The person who posted it on the You Tube probably did it without realising what a stir it would cause.
SC knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to cause maximum trouble for another pilot, and the same goes for some of the other Irish posters.
Passion Flying Hobby Science Sponsor Work
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Maybe a more "human" explanation: was so bussy with taking off (confined, building blocking oversight, passengers) and fixed on the idea of making a parade before the crowd, that he forgot about the wind direction...
Overwelmd by the context...
d3
Overwelmd by the context...
d3
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D3 and Chutedragger and Bronx- Concur with everything you say. Which brings me to an important point-
Public examination of this sort of thing is actually valuable, IF there is a lesson that can be learned so that people that haven't seen that combination of events etc etc before will think- "Holy Cr*p, I remember this- some bloke in a Youtube video was nearly killed in these circumstances" before doing it.
I've crunched a squirrel
and lost a couple of friends in other crashes
, all possibly could have been avoided with that bit of passed down corporate knowledge causing the hairs on the back of the neck to rise before you do something dumb/unsafe/outside the design spec of your aircraft.
It's called Flight Safety people!!
and a bit of risk management- Identify the hazards and publish them before someone else finds out the hard way.
Public examination of this sort of thing is actually valuable, IF there is a lesson that can be learned so that people that haven't seen that combination of events etc etc before will think- "Holy Cr*p, I remember this- some bloke in a Youtube video was nearly killed in these circumstances" before doing it.
I've crunched a squirrel
and lost a couple of friends in other crashes, all possibly could have been avoided with that bit of passed down corporate knowledge causing the hairs on the back of the neck to rise before you do something dumb/unsafe/outside the design spec of your aircraft.It's called Flight Safety people!!
and a bit of risk management- Identify the hazards and publish them before someone else finds out the hard way.
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Hedski
Ah, I see, that will explain it, fair enough.
Commercial opp's on private rating isn't uncommon (not saying thats what is going on in the video, as I have no idea), so I understand your position.
ok, have had more consideration on the whole thing, and I am on a quite job and am bored so....
Apart from the fact of whether he/she was legally able to perform the flight.
I think the area was plenty big enough and clear of garbage ect.
For a B3, having 3 adults and one baby on board, it would have had more power in reserve than it new what to do with (if that was the total pax on board)?
I don't think the wind speed SHOULD have been an issue, if he/she had just performed a towering take off straight ahead into the wind over the trees, instead of peddle turning up and then the wind catching and turning it faster than he/she anticipated (I am assuming here, and it appears to me the wind was coming from on the nose of the heli when it was parked).
Maybe he/she was just thinking of turning the heli around so the pax could wave to the guests on the way out and it just didn't go his/her way?
Once, again, I don't think the pilot should be locked up and the key thrown away because of what happened!
More training - yes, or it could have been a brain fart on the day?
On the legalities of the flight, that is something different, and I have no comment on that.
Ah, I see, that will explain it, fair enough.
Commercial opp's on private rating isn't uncommon (not saying thats what is going on in the video, as I have no idea), so I understand your position.
ok, have had more consideration on the whole thing, and I am on a quite job and am bored so....
Apart from the fact of whether he/she was legally able to perform the flight.
I think the area was plenty big enough and clear of garbage ect.
For a B3, having 3 adults and one baby on board, it would have had more power in reserve than it new what to do with (if that was the total pax on board)?
I don't think the wind speed SHOULD have been an issue, if he/she had just performed a towering take off straight ahead into the wind over the trees, instead of peddle turning up and then the wind catching and turning it faster than he/she anticipated (I am assuming here, and it appears to me the wind was coming from on the nose of the heli when it was parked).
Maybe he/she was just thinking of turning the heli around so the pax could wave to the guests on the way out and it just didn't go his/her way?
Once, again, I don't think the pilot should be locked up and the key thrown away because of what happened!
More training - yes, or it could have been a brain fart on the day?
On the legalities of the flight, that is something different, and I have no comment on that.
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Now the AS350 in question is not on an AOC (as far as I'm aware, standing by to be corrected), hence if the owner or pilot is not closely related to pax in some way it becomes Public Transport category flying.
What is the relevance of who is related to who? Are you suggesting that if my next door neighbour gets married, and I take him and his wife out in my helicopter free of charge, that is public transport? I suggest you look at the rules again
BC
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Well, if you really want to know just how terrible this stuff can get, read about Huw Paffard here;
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...199900645.aspx
He was an experienced ex-military pilot, including RN and Army time, who probably died in the most horrific circumstances possible, while committing the most basic of errors. All those who have commented about the lack of experience of the pilot in the video clip, or him being just a "PPL" might note that in numerous accidents, experience has counted for nothing when overall professionalism has failed. As anyone involved in accident investigation will tell you, "Judge not, lest ye be judged..."
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...199900645.aspx
He was an experienced ex-military pilot, including RN and Army time, who probably died in the most horrific circumstances possible, while committing the most basic of errors. All those who have commented about the lack of experience of the pilot in the video clip, or him being just a "PPL" might note that in numerous accidents, experience has counted for nothing when overall professionalism has failed. As anyone involved in accident investigation will tell you, "Judge not, lest ye be judged..."
The Agusta /Bell 47G-2A1 helicopter, registered VH-FLI, was borrowed by the pilot to fly his sister to her wedding at the family property near Holbrook NSW.
The pilot arrived at the helicopter owner's property around 0900 Eastern Standard Time on the day of the accident, and with assistance from the owner, he completed a pre-flight inspection of the helicopter. The pilot subsequently conducted a number of flights on the day of the accident.
At about 1730, the pilot and his sister boarded the helicopter and departed in an easterly direction. The pilot then followed a route that ran adjacent to the Holbrook to Jingellic road in order to remain near the car being driven by his mother.
Witnesses reported that the helicopter was flying at a very low height as it neared Chinamans Gap. At approximately 1745, when the helicopter was about 6 km from its destination, it struck a powerline, pitched nose down and impacted the ground on its left side. The impact and the subsequent fire fatally injured the occupants and destroyed the helicopter.
The pilot arrived at the helicopter owner's property around 0900 Eastern Standard Time on the day of the accident, and with assistance from the owner, he completed a pre-flight inspection of the helicopter. The pilot subsequently conducted a number of flights on the day of the accident.
At about 1730, the pilot and his sister boarded the helicopter and departed in an easterly direction. The pilot then followed a route that ran adjacent to the Holbrook to Jingellic road in order to remain near the car being driven by his mother.
Witnesses reported that the helicopter was flying at a very low height as it neared Chinamans Gap. At approximately 1745, when the helicopter was about 6 km from its destination, it struck a powerline, pitched nose down and impacted the ground on its left side. The impact and the subsequent fire fatally injured the occupants and destroyed the helicopter.
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Hedski
"Now the AS350 in question is not on an AOC (as far as I'm aware, standing by to be corrected), hence if the owner or pilot is not closely related to pax in some way it becomes Public Transport category flying."
Is that the law in the six counties of Northern Ireland?
There's no such law in the US nor from what I've read here over the years in Britain.
"Would anyone agree it's better to debate this issue now to minimise damage instead of another accident thread."
Yes I would, IF the debate was about what mistakes the pilot made or might have made and what the pilot and others who watch the video and read the debate can learn from it.
"String him up by his Gonads, leave him there to dry, assuming it was a he."
Maybe that's your idea of debating an issue to minimise damage instead of another accident thread.
It sure ain't mine.
I'm glad I don't fly in Ireland.
Too much bitching and too much trying to do other folk down for my liking.
"Now the AS350 in question is not on an AOC (as far as I'm aware, standing by to be corrected), hence if the owner or pilot is not closely related to pax in some way it becomes Public Transport category flying."
Is that the law in the six counties of Northern Ireland?
There's no such law in the US nor from what I've read here over the years in Britain.
"Would anyone agree it's better to debate this issue now to minimise damage instead of another accident thread."
Yes I would, IF the debate was about what mistakes the pilot made or might have made and what the pilot and others who watch the video and read the debate can learn from it.
"String him up by his Gonads, leave him there to dry, assuming it was a he."
Maybe that's your idea of debating an issue to minimise damage instead of another accident thread.
It sure ain't mine.
I'm glad I don't fly in Ireland.
Too much bitching and too much trying to do other folk down for my liking.
Last edited by Bronx; 14th Dec 2007 at 07:09.
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Flungdung, with respect that's rubbish. So you are saying no one should fly in Ireland, north or south?
There are plenty of reputable operators, owners and pilots! The cowboys tend to get everyone tarred with the same brush.
There are plenty of reputable operators, owners and pilots! The cowboys tend to get everyone tarred with the same brush.
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FD
"If you knew how much flaunting of the rules of aviation that goes on in Ireland (N & S) you would not want to fly there. "
Why?
Is the accident rate any worse than in Britain where there are loads of strict regs that are strictly enforced?
"If you knew how much flaunting of the rules of aviation that goes on in Ireland (N & S) you would not want to fly there. "
Why?
Is the accident rate any worse than in Britain where there are loads of strict regs that are strictly enforced?