Pilot Exiting While Rotors Turning
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It's mostly only the three bladed systems you need to worry about with ground resonance, you can get it with a h500 but with all those blades it doesn't give the same problem.
Although I have been wrong before
Although I have been wrong before
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golfer,
flungdung has it spot on. if i'm on the top of a mountain or in the arctic by myself where another machine could not get in to land to fix a machine that wouldn't start, or where the climate would make it very uncomfortable/dangerous to live without a helicopter heater, i definitely would take the small risk of leaving it running while i fuel, put on a longline/etc.
flungdung has it spot on. if i'm on the top of a mountain or in the arctic by myself where another machine could not get in to land to fix a machine that wouldn't start, or where the climate would make it very uncomfortable/dangerous to live without a helicopter heater, i definitely would take the small risk of leaving it running while i fuel, put on a longline/etc.
Moderator
I'm only a 40 hour helicopter student. I have found that the self disipline of sitting and tidying up the cockpit after a flight to be very relaxing, while the blades coast to a stop in their own time. That's what the operator's checklist says to do, and I do everything else on the checklist, why not finish the job properly?
I have not walked the mile in the other pilot's shoes, so I'm not critisizing, and I suppose there will be a time when letting it wind down on it's own will make some sense to me, but for now, I'm still a little scared of screwing up!
I'll wait!
Pilot DAR
I have not walked the mile in the other pilot's shoes, so I'm not critisizing, and I suppose there will be a time when letting it wind down on it's own will make some sense to me, but for now, I'm still a little scared of screwing up!
I'll wait!
Pilot DAR
At the FOB at Bessbrook in the mid 70s a loaded Puma approached the LZ. There was a Scout and a Sioux rotors running on the small pads in front of the main pad the Puma was going for. IA with SOPs the Puma transmitted his arrival for the benefit of the two helis burning and turning.
The Puma landed. The Sioux exited stage left upside down and a frantic army pilot entered stage right from the Ops hut.
The Puma landed. The Sioux exited stage left upside down and a frantic army pilot entered stage right from the Ops hut.
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Morning Perfrej,
Ground resonance is not an issue at anything other than flying RPM with a little collective pitch applied. It is stopped by either lifting off or lowering the collective from that point. It certainly won't happen with the engine shut down. Again related to the type I fly only.
Pilot Dar, I do that too and often sit for some time in the cockpit afterwards as well. Its a place of great tranquility after a flight - but sometimes the priority is to get the thing covered up and clear off so I go and get the cover. By the time I get back its stopped.
Minimal risk to me. No risk to aircraft. No risk to anyone else. Not illegal and was quite acceptable when I did my training.
Not acceptable to a lot of PPRuNers apparently though.
Ground resonance is not an issue at anything other than flying RPM with a little collective pitch applied. It is stopped by either lifting off or lowering the collective from that point. It certainly won't happen with the engine shut down. Again related to the type I fly only.
Pilot Dar, I do that too and often sit for some time in the cockpit afterwards as well. Its a place of great tranquility after a flight - but sometimes the priority is to get the thing covered up and clear off so I go and get the cover. By the time I get back its stopped.
Minimal risk to me. No risk to aircraft. No risk to anyone else. Not illegal and was quite acceptable when I did my training.
Not acceptable to a lot of PPRuNers apparently though.
Last edited by Gaseous; 8th Dec 2007 at 13:32. Reason: To highlight the bit that says it doesnt apply to all A/C
Gaseous, good morning again.
I know it may be going off the original thread a little but with the ground resonance if you are subjected to it on landing then quite rightly lift off again, however if you land on get resonance and shut the engine down the damage has been done and the a/c may continue to get wrecked unless you stop the rotors sharpish - I think.
I know it may be going off the original thread a little but with the ground resonance if you are subjected to it on landing then quite rightly lift off again, however if you land on get resonance and shut the engine down the damage has been done and the a/c may continue to get wrecked unless you stop the rotors sharpish - I think.
Gaseous - Ground resonance more often than not occurs during start up when the Nr is not at normal speed. Designers try to make sure that the rotor does not excite any natural resonant frequencies of other components (particularly landing gear) but unequal tyre pressures/oleo pressures or uneven ground can negate this. You do not need collective pitch applied.
Fareastdriver:
I suppose there may be many(?) of these anecdotal stories about small helicopters being flipped over by big helicopters. In the above-mentioned case of The Puma And The Sioux, I doubt that the Sioux driver could have done anything even if he had been at the controls...other than roll it up to 3100 and fly away before the Puma got there.
Teetering systems have no...as in ZERO...control power when the skids are on the ground. This applies whether the MR rpm is at idle or full. Doesn't matter what you do with the cyclic. For the cyclic to "work" the helicopter has to be in the air. And even then, cyclics in teetering helicopters have little control power as Nick, Shawn et.al. have constantly explained.
The Sioux was likely more downwind of the Puma than the Scout, I'd say, and at least the pilot was not along for the ride to possibly be injured.
I've flown just about my entire career in two-bladed systems. In 10,000 hours-plus, this is my experience: Sitting at idle, I've had all kinds of helicopters come in and park next to me, and I've had all kinds of weird wind gusts impact on the helicopter. Never...and I do mean *NEVER* have I had to actually do anything with the cyclic. Oh, sometimes the ship will shudder and shake and slide around a bit, causing me to throw the clipboard up in the air and grab the sticks in panic - not that there was anything I had to (or could) do. Never have I had to move the cyclic in response to a "sudden gust" of wind.
If the cyclic stays centered, then it will *ALWAYS* bring the rotor back to that trim position within a blade or two - it can't help it.
Now, let's talk about the sustained downwash from a big ship landing immediately adjacent and upwind. I reckon that if a Puma landed so close to me as to blow my helicopter over, then it's his fault for landing too close and MY fault for not realizing that he's a dumba** and getting out of there when I had the chance...or stopping the rotor and securing the blade/ship.
At PHI, we had to tie the *aircraft* down to the platform with big straps if a medium (e.g. 412) was to land beside us. But we could not even be on the deck, tied-down or not, even if there was room, if a "big ship" (Puma, 214ST) landed.
To sum up, at idle there is not a lot you can do. If the gust is small and brief enough to cause a rotor divergence, the cyclic will bring it back (if the cyclic has been properly frictioned, of course). If the gust/upset is so large that it moves the helicopter, the hapless pilot is just along for the ride. Good luck getting it spooled up to 100% before it falls over. At that point, the only thing the pilot is good for is securing the engine, fuel valve and master switch.
I don't know what happened with the most recent case where the *pilot* of the 407 got whacked and killed by the MR blade. I'm baffled at the sequence of events that lead up to that mess. How could that pilot have left the disk so low in the front?? When I'm "hot-loading" in my 206, which I do quite often in my operation, I pull the cyclic almost all the way right-rear. (I know that the blades won't hit the tailboom even at full aft cyclic.) If I get out of the ship while it's running (and sometimes I do - horrors!), I make sure that the cyclic is centered laterally and aft of center longitudinally (given the 206's forward mast tilt) to get the disk way up in front.
This whole thread would be needless if pilots would just exercise some common sense once in a while. Unfortunately, as we see all too often in our industry, pilots do not come so-equipped.
I keep in mind the amusing image of the lone S-76 pilot in Los Angeles, California a couple of years ago who got out of his big Sikorsky (without anyone else in the cockpit) to check a door while it was running at 100%, only to have the dang thing try to take off without him. Now *there* was a Real Man Of Genius! One can only imagine how the ensuing phone call to the Chief Pilot went, but it must have been hilarious.
At the FOB at Bessbrook in the mid 70s a loaded Puma approached the LZ. There was a Scout and a Sioux rotors running on the small pads in front of the main pad the Puma was going for. IA with SOPs the Puma transmitted his arrival for the benefit of the two helis burning and turning.
The Puma landed. The Sioux exited stage left upside down and a frantic army pilot entered stage right from the Ops hut.
The Puma landed. The Sioux exited stage left upside down and a frantic army pilot entered stage right from the Ops hut.
Teetering systems have no...as in ZERO...control power when the skids are on the ground. This applies whether the MR rpm is at idle or full. Doesn't matter what you do with the cyclic. For the cyclic to "work" the helicopter has to be in the air. And even then, cyclics in teetering helicopters have little control power as Nick, Shawn et.al. have constantly explained.
The Sioux was likely more downwind of the Puma than the Scout, I'd say, and at least the pilot was not along for the ride to possibly be injured.
I've flown just about my entire career in two-bladed systems. In 10,000 hours-plus, this is my experience: Sitting at idle, I've had all kinds of helicopters come in and park next to me, and I've had all kinds of weird wind gusts impact on the helicopter. Never...and I do mean *NEVER* have I had to actually do anything with the cyclic. Oh, sometimes the ship will shudder and shake and slide around a bit, causing me to throw the clipboard up in the air and grab the sticks in panic - not that there was anything I had to (or could) do. Never have I had to move the cyclic in response to a "sudden gust" of wind.
If the cyclic stays centered, then it will *ALWAYS* bring the rotor back to that trim position within a blade or two - it can't help it.
Now, let's talk about the sustained downwash from a big ship landing immediately adjacent and upwind. I reckon that if a Puma landed so close to me as to blow my helicopter over, then it's his fault for landing too close and MY fault for not realizing that he's a dumba** and getting out of there when I had the chance...or stopping the rotor and securing the blade/ship.
At PHI, we had to tie the *aircraft* down to the platform with big straps if a medium (e.g. 412) was to land beside us. But we could not even be on the deck, tied-down or not, even if there was room, if a "big ship" (Puma, 214ST) landed.
To sum up, at idle there is not a lot you can do. If the gust is small and brief enough to cause a rotor divergence, the cyclic will bring it back (if the cyclic has been properly frictioned, of course). If the gust/upset is so large that it moves the helicopter, the hapless pilot is just along for the ride. Good luck getting it spooled up to 100% before it falls over. At that point, the only thing the pilot is good for is securing the engine, fuel valve and master switch.
I don't know what happened with the most recent case where the *pilot* of the 407 got whacked and killed by the MR blade. I'm baffled at the sequence of events that lead up to that mess. How could that pilot have left the disk so low in the front?? When I'm "hot-loading" in my 206, which I do quite often in my operation, I pull the cyclic almost all the way right-rear. (I know that the blades won't hit the tailboom even at full aft cyclic.) If I get out of the ship while it's running (and sometimes I do - horrors!), I make sure that the cyclic is centered laterally and aft of center longitudinally (given the 206's forward mast tilt) to get the disk way up in front.
This whole thread would be needless if pilots would just exercise some common sense once in a while. Unfortunately, as we see all too often in our industry, pilots do not come so-equipped.
I keep in mind the amusing image of the lone S-76 pilot in Los Angeles, California a couple of years ago who got out of his big Sikorsky (without anyone else in the cockpit) to check a door while it was running at 100%, only to have the dang thing try to take off without him. Now *there* was a Real Man Of Genius! One can only imagine how the ensuing phone call to the Chief Pilot went, but it must have been hilarious.
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FH1100
I'm not sure if you have time in the 407 or not?
But, it's mast is tilted forward so the blades are low in front like the astar/squirrel, so any uneven ground can have the blades coming quite low, the 407 also has a light that comes on telling you to center the cyclic if you have it to far from what it calls center, I guess it has to do with the stress on the head?
So I'm not sure how far aft you could safely leave the cyclic?
I'm not familiar with that accident, but maybe it was uneven ground?
Hmmm...I seem to be full of questions
I'm not sure if you have time in the 407 or not?
But, it's mast is tilted forward so the blades are low in front like the astar/squirrel, so any uneven ground can have the blades coming quite low, the 407 also has a light that comes on telling you to center the cyclic if you have it to far from what it calls center, I guess it has to do with the stress on the head?
So I'm not sure how far aft you could safely leave the cyclic?
I'm not familiar with that accident, but maybe it was uneven ground?
Hmmm...I seem to be full of questions
FH1100 Pilot.
Good post. Actually, which has been proven many times, a Sioux can take a Puma landing beside it as long as the Sioux is under control.
This thread has a lot of people justifying why they leave the heli turning and burning to do something else. I have no experience in their particular operations so I am not prepared to argue, as opposed to some arnchair warriors who know nothing about it. In my facet I do things that other disciplines would regard as suicidal, but I do it, again and again.
How many people have walked into the rotor of a heli running unaccompanied? Not a lot, and those who have should have know better. Should it work for operations where it is neccessary then let it be. There are horses for courses, just accept that and let sleeping dogs lie.
Good post. Actually, which has been proven many times, a Sioux can take a Puma landing beside it as long as the Sioux is under control.
This thread has a lot of people justifying why they leave the heli turning and burning to do something else. I have no experience in their particular operations so I am not prepared to argue, as opposed to some arnchair warriors who know nothing about it. In my facet I do things that other disciplines would regard as suicidal, but I do it, again and again.
How many people have walked into the rotor of a heli running unaccompanied? Not a lot, and those who have should have know better. Should it work for operations where it is neccessary then let it be. There are horses for courses, just accept that and let sleeping dogs lie.
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I can not believe all the banter about whether its is acceptable or not to leave a helicopter running unattended without a qualified person at the controls. I have personally had to run out on to the ramp and shut down 2 machines over the years that were shuffling along the ramp with no one on board while the pilot(s) was on the phone or he had forgotten the JLB.
I also know of a long ranger(engine running) that slid down a mountain side while the pilot landed for a leak, and another time the pilot got out of a running helicopter and walked into the main rotor while on uneven ground. So if you dumb enough to walk away from your helicopter with the engine running, your dumb enough to get killed.
I also know of a long ranger(engine running) that slid down a mountain side while the pilot landed for a leak, and another time the pilot got out of a running helicopter and walked into the main rotor while on uneven ground. So if you dumb enough to walk away from your helicopter with the engine running, your dumb enough to get killed.
Not to be argumentative, but...
skidbiter2: "So I'm not sure how far aft you could safely leave the cyclic?"
Light or not, I would at least leave it high enough that it wouldn't whack me own head off! (Is it a red light? I've got at least two amber caution lights illuminated in my B-model when I'm at idle.)
I've never flown the 407, but is the mast tilted forward more steeply than a 206? I thought the S-76 was bad!
Fareastdriver: "Actually, which has been proven many times, a Sioux can take a Puma landing beside it as long as the Sioux is under control."
Apparently not!
Control? What control? Again, at idle rpm in a helicopter with a teetering system there is NOTHING that a pilot can do but hang on. At idle that baby was goin' over! Teetering rotors have *NO* control power on the ground at idle and flat pitch. The only thing that would have saved the Sioux is if the pilot ran it up to 100% and was prepared to lift off. Which he couldn't do because he wasn't in attendance at the moment - oops!
I'd bet that there was some wind "helping" the downwash and outflow velocity of the Puma.
skidbiter2: "So I'm not sure how far aft you could safely leave the cyclic?"
Light or not, I would at least leave it high enough that it wouldn't whack me own head off! (Is it a red light? I've got at least two amber caution lights illuminated in my B-model when I'm at idle.)
I've never flown the 407, but is the mast tilted forward more steeply than a 206? I thought the S-76 was bad!
Fareastdriver: "Actually, which has been proven many times, a Sioux can take a Puma landing beside it as long as the Sioux is under control."
Apparently not!
Control? What control? Again, at idle rpm in a helicopter with a teetering system there is NOTHING that a pilot can do but hang on. At idle that baby was goin' over! Teetering rotors have *NO* control power on the ground at idle and flat pitch. The only thing that would have saved the Sioux is if the pilot ran it up to 100% and was prepared to lift off. Which he couldn't do because he wasn't in attendance at the moment - oops!
I'd bet that there was some wind "helping" the downwash and outflow velocity of the Puma.
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FH1100
Not sure on the comparison to the 206, never done a lot in them, but on flat ground I can grab the blades out front of the 407 when they are stopped, of coarse they are higher when turning and I agree you are or should be aware of your blades when you hop out, although we as humans are prone to brain farts at times.
oh and I'm only a short arse so the blades are pretty low.
No not a bad red light, just an amber "center cyclic" light if you don't have it centered.
And on back on the topic, I have no problem with getting out with the engine running, always have done and still will, never had a problem, yes there could be a day that I do, but as long as you are careful and you don't go far away (eg inside for a coffee) It makes the job run better, as a bush pilot you don't always have a crew man to help out, in fact I never seem to have one? hmmm....maybe I will run take a shower!
I think our camp water supply has been thawed out?
Not sure on the comparison to the 206, never done a lot in them, but on flat ground I can grab the blades out front of the 407 when they are stopped, of coarse they are higher when turning and I agree you are or should be aware of your blades when you hop out, although we as humans are prone to brain farts at times.
oh and I'm only a short arse so the blades are pretty low.
No not a bad red light, just an amber "center cyclic" light if you don't have it centered.
And on back on the topic, I have no problem with getting out with the engine running, always have done and still will, never had a problem, yes there could be a day that I do, but as long as you are careful and you don't go far away (eg inside for a coffee) It makes the job run better, as a bush pilot you don't always have a crew man to help out, in fact I never seem to have one? hmmm....maybe I will run take a shower!
I think our camp water supply has been thawed out?
Last edited by skidbiter2; 8th Dec 2007 at 17:37.
Avoid imitations
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FH1100,
You have obviously not been to Bessbrook. It was a main helicopter base in Northern Ireland; an operational theatre at the time (i.e. certain locals were shooting at helicopters with some effective weaponry). It was really too small for the requirements of the helicopters using it and at that time was an extremely busy landing site and was surrounded by a rocket fence.
I would say that in the circumstances the dumbass was almost certainly not the Puma pilot! To leave an unattended helicopter of any sort running there was a stupid idea because it was highly likely that someone else would have to overfly your parking slot on the way in or out and in the British military it is always assumed that a running helicopter is manned!
BTW, Pilots were told where to land by "Buzzard" and it often meant overflying very close to other aircraft. You didn't hang about on the approach, to minimise the risk of an "AK-47 welcome" or worse by the boys from just over the border. No room to pussyfoot about in the hover inside the rocket fence waiting for someone to finish his pee break!
Now, let's talk about the sustained downwash from a big ship landing immediately adjacent and upwind. I reckon that if a Puma landed so close to me as to blow my helicopter over, then it's his fault for landing too close and MY fault for not realizing that he's a dumba** and getting out of there when I had the chance...or stopping the rotor and securing the blade/ship.
I would say that in the circumstances the dumbass was almost certainly not the Puma pilot! To leave an unattended helicopter of any sort running there was a stupid idea because it was highly likely that someone else would have to overfly your parking slot on the way in or out and in the British military it is always assumed that a running helicopter is manned!
BTW, Pilots were told where to land by "Buzzard" and it often meant overflying very close to other aircraft. You didn't hang about on the approach, to minimise the risk of an "AK-47 welcome" or worse by the boys from just over the border. No room to pussyfoot about in the hover inside the rocket fence waiting for someone to finish his pee break!
Several years ago in East Timor I was flying as a crewman on Russian MI-8s, assisting the loadmaster whenever Jordanian or Kiwi units required resupply.
On several occasions we arrived at LZ early and had to wait for pers from the recieving unit to arrive. When this happened the pilots would often leave the cockpit, with the helo turning and burning, and light up a smoke.
When it first happened I was a bit shocked, I asked the Loadie if it was safe, he mumbled a few words in broken English and it soon became routine. I think I have it on video, I would post it but its on HI-8 and I don't know how to convert it to digital.
On several occasions we arrived at LZ early and had to wait for pers from the recieving unit to arrive. When this happened the pilots would often leave the cockpit, with the helo turning and burning, and light up a smoke.
When it first happened I was a bit shocked, I asked the Loadie if it was safe, he mumbled a few words in broken English
and it soon became routine. I think I have it on video, I would post it but its on HI-8 and I don't know how to convert it to digital.
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Help Requested
I was recently asked by a helicopter pilot if there is any legislation, or data of equivalent status, that specifically permits or prohibits the sole pilot of a helicopter from exiting the cockpit with the rotors running and I couldn't give a difinitive answer.
The question arises from the perenial problem of ensuring that all doors have been properly closed - with the seatbelts inside the helicopter - after dropping-off passengers and continuing with a flight. No qualified ground-staff are present.
Yes, I know the Flight Manual states something like "..pilot to remain at the controls until the rotors have stopped..." and may be construed as the answer to the question, but this is usually an item of the engine shut-down procedure and therefore it could be reasonbly argued that as the pilot does not intend to shut-down, then this requirement is not applicable.
Can anyone out there point me in the right direction?
The question arises from the perenial problem of ensuring that all doors have been properly closed - with the seatbelts inside the helicopter - after dropping-off passengers and continuing with a flight. No qualified ground-staff are present.
Yes, I know the Flight Manual states something like "..pilot to remain at the controls until the rotors have stopped..." and may be construed as the answer to the question, but this is usually an item of the engine shut-down procedure and therefore it could be reasonbly argued that as the pilot does not intend to shut-down, then this requirement is not applicable.
Can anyone out there point me in the right direction?
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Don't do it...it is not worth it!!
Answered you own question!! It is also in your local air law and usually a good ops manual.
Get out of the helicopter and leave it on its own at your own peril! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...the thing left without me.
Never drop passengers any where you can’t shut down if doors and seat belts are a potential concern, as at least once in a career you will get caught out. Do it every day and your really pushing your luck...and you wouldn’t work for me / my organisation, you are too big a risk. I am older and wiser now! Please learn from my mistake and the mistakes of people like me.
P.S. Remember the Dauphin fatality at Penang a few years back? I believe that was another example of just how wrong it can go.
Get out of the helicopter and leave it on its own at your own peril! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...the thing left without me.
Never drop passengers any where you can’t shut down if doors and seat belts are a potential concern, as at least once in a career you will get caught out. Do it every day and your really pushing your luck...and you wouldn’t work for me / my organisation, you are too big a risk. I am older and wiser now! Please learn from my mistake and the mistakes of people like me.
P.S. Remember the Dauphin fatality at Penang a few years back? I believe that was another example of just how wrong it can go.
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JAA/EASA require a competent person to be at the controls (must be a pilot for helicopters), but it is legal in Canada as long as the controls are immobilised. Dunno about other countries.
Phil
Phil