Pilot Exiting While Rotors Turning
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In days gone by it was accepted normal practice at a local school to leave fuel injected aircraft running, with the clutch disengaged for quite long periods between flights, blades going round but not under direct power. This was because they are not easy to restart when hot. Engine running refueling was also normal practice.
It was not unusual to see a couple of unattended, running aircraft. The type in question did not rely on friction to hold the cyclic central.
The practice has now stopped I believe at the request of the airport operator. They must have done a risk assesment and didnt like it. As far as I know it never caused any problems. It just made one careful on the apron.
I'm sure many other PPRuNers will have seen this too.
It was not unusual to see a couple of unattended, running aircraft. The type in question did not rely on friction to hold the cyclic central.
The practice has now stopped I believe at the request of the airport operator. They must have done a risk assesment and didnt like it. As far as I know it never caused any problems. It just made one careful on the apron.
I'm sure many other PPRuNers will have seen this too.
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Gaseous - are you talking about rotors running refuels on piston-engined training aircraft? If so, I presume that's Robbies, Enstroms, H200 or Bell47. Don't they all have their tanks "up top"?
The danger there if you have a fuel spill and fuel ends up over the engine / exhaust. I could understand taking that risk out in the boonies with the chance of the engine not starting and you getting eaten by dingoes, but for training - and on your home field?
The danger there if you have a fuel spill and fuel ends up over the engine / exhaust. I could understand taking that risk out in the boonies with the chance of the engine not starting and you getting eaten by dingoes, but for training - and on your home field?
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Rotors turning
At one time we actually had an option on the S76A so you could do this! Small flip out fork from under the instrument panel that you velcro'd the cyclic into... This was prompted by a VIP aircraft that came into the Service Center one fine day....when he exited the aircraft with rotors turning at 100% there wasn't a ground crew man in sight to greet him!!
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Pofman
If subject to JAR-OPS 3, then Subpart D JAR-OPS 3.210(d) applies.
An operator shall not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power without a qualified pilot at the controls.
An operator shall not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power without a qualified pilot at the controls.
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Flaxton. Correct on all counts. Presumably, the commercial pressure to keep aircraft flying determined the policy. I'm guessing as I was a student. Some pistons really can be impossible to restart when hot.
I didnt lose any sleep over it.
I am quite happy to do an engine running refuel on my Enstrom. I Just make sure I dont spill any.
I didnt lose any sleep over it.
I am quite happy to do an engine running refuel on my Enstrom. I Just make sure I dont spill any.
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I stopped in to see if I could get a job flying tours in Tennessee. They
had a 206 sitting on the pad idling unattended for at least 45 minutes.
They thought engine cycles cost more than fuel. It was still running
when I left. Didn't have any Robinson time, so no job.
had a 206 sitting on the pad idling unattended for at least 45 minutes.
They thought engine cycles cost more than fuel. It was still running
when I left. Didn't have any Robinson time, so no job.
I've flown with these guys in aruba and I have seen them leave the heli while the rotors were still turning but they had almost stopped. The one thing that did make me feel uneasy was that the pilot had the carb heat locked down, ie no carb heat at any point during the flight or landing. really didn't like that. was there 4 weeks ago and decided not to go up again, partly because I'd done it a few times already and partly 'cause I didn't enjoy the last flight as my eye was on the carb heat guage. When quized he said that it wasn't really applicable due to their climate, the flight was uneventful and we landed wuth no carb heat and all was well....apart from my heart! My advice and advice I was given while training, if in doubt the answers NO!
Glad you enjoyed Aruba.....great place!
Glad you enjoyed Aruba.....great place!
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i'm surprised at the difference in outlook between the uk and canada...here it is common practice (though avoided if possible) and even approved in our company operations manual. i feel it is safe to do so with the frictions on at idle, obviously within reasonable wind limits a decent landing site. i suppose a large part of the reason for it being so common over here is the inaccessability of the landing sites we use.
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Somepitch,
Well said
The 'British Outlook' pervades all aspects of British society - especially the workplace. As a nation we are so risk averse, paranoid, willing to be ruled, threatened, regulated, overtaxed and generally ordered obout that we are conditioned to condemn and generally flap about over any practice that mildy offends us. So many times I come across the attitude that "there ought to be a law against it - and if there isnt we'll make one up anyway". It rears its ugly head on PPRuNE regularly.
Rant over.
Phil, Anarchist.
Well said
The 'British Outlook' pervades all aspects of British society - especially the workplace. As a nation we are so risk averse, paranoid, willing to be ruled, threatened, regulated, overtaxed and generally ordered obout that we are conditioned to condemn and generally flap about over any practice that mildy offends us. So many times I come across the attitude that "there ought to be a law against it - and if there isnt we'll make one up anyway". It rears its ugly head on PPRuNE regularly.
Rant over.
Phil, Anarchist.
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BVGS
Aruba is great and I will return (3rd time) but won't be flying with Aruba Helicopters after what I witnessed and you confirmed. Not just the rotors turning bit but no pre flights checks either. An accident waiting to happen?
Gaseous
So do you abandon your own Enstrom once you've swithched the engine off with rotors still whizzing?
Somepitch
I don't understand the link you make between inaccessible landing sites and abandonong ship with rotors turning. Can you explain?
Aruba is great and I will return (3rd time) but won't be flying with Aruba Helicopters after what I witnessed and you confirmed. Not just the rotors turning bit but no pre flights checks either. An accident waiting to happen?
Gaseous
So do you abandon your own Enstrom once you've swithched the engine off with rotors still whizzing?
Somepitch
I don't understand the link you make between inaccessible landing sites and abandonong ship with rotors turning. Can you explain?
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Occasionally in private when there is no risk to anyone but me. There is minimal, if any, risk to the aircraft which I am comfortable with. Sitting in it doesnt reduce that risk.
I wouldnt do it in a Robbie as it relies on the frictions holding to prevent damage plus the brake makes the process quick enough. There is no brake on the Enstrom,the blades are heavy and it takes a long time to stop.
Never when pax or onlookers present or at a public site, although I would get out if errant trespassers or animals put themselves at risk. Im sure shooing them off is safer than waving from the cockpit while steadfastly holding the cyclic in the middle. Its nice to know the aircraft wont self destruct if this were ever required.
As I said, it used to be standard practice at a local school until comparatively recently. Done it plenty of times at that particular airport but not anymore.
I wouldnt do it in a Robbie as it relies on the frictions holding to prevent damage plus the brake makes the process quick enough. There is no brake on the Enstrom,the blades are heavy and it takes a long time to stop.
Never when pax or onlookers present or at a public site, although I would get out if errant trespassers or animals put themselves at risk. Im sure shooing them off is safer than waving from the cockpit while steadfastly holding the cyclic in the middle. Its nice to know the aircraft wont self destruct if this were ever required.
As I said, it used to be standard practice at a local school until comparatively recently. Done it plenty of times at that particular airport but not anymore.
Last edited by Gaseous; 7th Dec 2007 at 09:57. Reason: To qualify my original glib reply
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************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 11/16/2007 Record 1 **
************************************************** ******************************
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 555BH Make/Model: B407 Description: Bell 407
Date: 11/09/2007 Time: 2110
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: MORRISTOWN State: TN Country: US
DESCRIPTION
N555BH, A BELL 407 ROTORCRAFT, WHILE STANDING WITH ROTOR STILL RUNNING, THE
PILOT WALKED INTO THE TURNING MAIN ROTOR AND WAS FATALLY INJURED,
MORRISTOWN, TN
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Standing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 11/13/2007
** Report created 11/16/2007 Record 1 **
************************************************** ******************************
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 555BH Make/Model: B407 Description: Bell 407
Date: 11/09/2007 Time: 2110
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: MORRISTOWN State: TN Country: US
DESCRIPTION
N555BH, A BELL 407 ROTORCRAFT, WHILE STANDING WITH ROTOR STILL RUNNING, THE
PILOT WALKED INTO THE TURNING MAIN ROTOR AND WAS FATALLY INJURED,
MORRISTOWN, TN
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Standing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 11/13/2007
Last edited by Mars; 7th Dec 2007 at 15:24.
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There are plenty more like that one too. Perhaps the most graphic and relevant to the title of this thread:
Whether you do or don't is up to ones own risk tolerance but its clear that moving under the disk in motion is not without peril. Its a bit like crossing the road. With care it can be accomplished reliably and safely but get it wrong and you can end up very dead.
Arriving back at a rural location after a flight in a small Robinson helicopter, the pilot had shut the aircraft down and exited the aircraft while the rotors ran down. According to reports, his four-year-old daughter approached him and was fatally injured when he lifted her onto his shoulders – and into the still moving main-rotor disc….
Last edited by Gaseous; 7th Dec 2007 at 12:29.
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I wonder how one is to unload the passengers?
Do I have to shut down and wait for the blades to stop with every load?
If I am sitting in the heli while the blades stop turning is that going to stop the blade sail? (with no rotor brake)
Not sure how I would go about shutting down when doing a hover exit/entry?
Go fly planes, they like all the rules!
Do I have to shut down and wait for the blades to stop with every load?
If I am sitting in the heli while the blades stop turning is that going to stop the blade sail? (with no rotor brake)
Not sure how I would go about shutting down when doing a hover exit/entry?
Go fly planes, they like all the rules!
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This is what I was taught.
Preferably with everything stopped. This is the only way my wife will do it.
If it must be rotors running, do it with RRPM at flying speed, pax approaches in line of sight of pilot - not on a slope, and at a pre arranged signal from pilot. Pax keeps head down, pilot keeps tip plane up. Keep eye contact. Pax gets in. Do not allow boarding at idle as the tip plane will be much lower and the pilot cannot control it. Getting them out is pretty much the reverse. It may be different for other types.
Blade sail? With an Enstrom once the grips are on the droop stops the pilot has no control over the rotor. You can do what you like with the cyclic it makes little difference. It takes a big gust to upset an Enstrom rotor.
With a teetering head one does ones best with the cyclic and its in the lap of the gods.
Preferably with everything stopped. This is the only way my wife will do it.
If it must be rotors running, do it with RRPM at flying speed, pax approaches in line of sight of pilot - not on a slope, and at a pre arranged signal from pilot. Pax keeps head down, pilot keeps tip plane up. Keep eye contact. Pax gets in. Do not allow boarding at idle as the tip plane will be much lower and the pilot cannot control it. Getting them out is pretty much the reverse. It may be different for other types.
Blade sail? With an Enstrom once the grips are on the droop stops the pilot has no control over the rotor. You can do what you like with the cyclic it makes little difference. It takes a big gust to upset an Enstrom rotor.
With a teetering head one does ones best with the cyclic and its in the lap of the gods.
Not a rotorhead but this thread reminded me of a story I heard many moons ago.
A Heliski pilot in the Alps had dropped of his pax but his base could not raise him on the radio. Another chopper was sent up to look for him and they found the pilots body by the tail rotor, which he seemed to have walked through. There was some speculation that he may have got out for a slash.
Possibly just one of those "stories" that go around?
A Heliski pilot in the Alps had dropped of his pax but his base could not raise him on the radio. Another chopper was sent up to look for him and they found the pilots body by the tail rotor, which he seemed to have walked through. There was some speculation that he may have got out for a slash.
Possibly just one of those "stories" that go around?
Do not allow boarding at idle as the tip plane will be much lower and the pilot cannot control it.
Not in the helicopter I currently fly...nor any of the ones I've ever flown.
..and they found the pilots body by the tail rotor, which he seemed to have walked through. There was some speculation that he may have got out for a slash.
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FH1100, just to clarify,
Tip plane path = a flat disc traced in the air by the spinning rotor blade tips.
I'm sure you know that.
It is nearer the ground at idle RPM because the blades droop. It is therefore more likely to lop your nut off. Also cyclic control is not effective as the blades are not flying.
unless there is no gravity in Pensacola
edit: It occured to me that if you fly a jet powered thingy (FH1100 perhaps)the idle speed may be significantly higher than a piston Enstrom. I dont know about jets and I did qualify it by saying it may be different for other types.
An Enstrom at idle with the clutch disengaged will be doing about 40-60 RRPM depending on how it is set up. Not enough to lift the blades off the stops but enough to give you a fair headache.
Tip plane path = a flat disc traced in the air by the spinning rotor blade tips.
I'm sure you know that.
It is nearer the ground at idle RPM because the blades droop. It is therefore more likely to lop your nut off. Also cyclic control is not effective as the blades are not flying.
unless there is no gravity in Pensacola
edit: It occured to me that if you fly a jet powered thingy (FH1100 perhaps)the idle speed may be significantly higher than a piston Enstrom. I dont know about jets and I did qualify it by saying it may be different for other types.
An Enstrom at idle with the clutch disengaged will be doing about 40-60 RRPM depending on how it is set up. Not enough to lift the blades off the stops but enough to give you a fair headache.
Last edited by Gaseous; 7th Dec 2007 at 20:12.
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Ground resonance...
I recall discussions of said practice (leaving the machine with rotors turning under power) during basic flight training. The general idea was to NOT leave a machine subject to gound resonance with rotors turning under power. Machines not subject to ground resonance was considered OK to leave. I guess it makes sense, and in my humble opinion it is worse to leave it with rotors spinning down with engine shut down because of the risk of blade drooping and sailing.
If my memory serves me correctly, machines with semi-rigid or rigid rotor heads can not get into a state of ground resonance, while fully articulated can (hence the oleo dampers on the 500, 300, enstroms and what have you, and the abscence of dampers on the Bo105 and the 206).
Point me in the general direction if I'm in over my head in this...
/p
If my memory serves me correctly, machines with semi-rigid or rigid rotor heads can not get into a state of ground resonance, while fully articulated can (hence the oleo dampers on the 500, 300, enstroms and what have you, and the abscence of dampers on the Bo105 and the 206).
Point me in the general direction if I'm in over my head in this...
/p