109 Grand Ditching in Italy
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109 Grand Ditching in Italy
They were on finals and ditched 500 meters from coast, after 7 minutes the helicopter sunk.
All alive
http://www.dgualdo.it/iremj/iremj-report.htm
All alive
http://www.dgualdo.it/iremj/iremj-report.htm
sola del Giglio - 24 Novembre 2007. ELICOTTERO PEGASO CADE IN MARE DAVANTI AL LAZZARETTO.
Tragedia sfiorata nelle acque dell'Isola del Giglio. Sono stati recuperati e sono tutti salvi i 4 componenti dell'equipaggio dell'eliambulanza del 118 precipitata in mare questa sera nelle acque isolane. A bordo del velivolo, un Augusta A109 Grand, c'erano il pilota Aldo Baldoni, il co-pilota Gaetano Anastrelli, il medico Laura Giordano e l'infermiere professionale Alessio Gonnelli. L'elicottero stava per atterrare sull'isola per prelevare e trasferire all'ospedale Misericordia di Grosseto un paziente isolano quando è avvenuto l'incidente. Alle 20:46, dopo aver dato il "finale" all'equipaggio dell'ambulanza che lo stava attendendo in piazzola, ovvero circa 10-15 secondi prima dell'atterraggio, il velivolo, stando alle prime ricostruzioni, avrebbe perso potenza e di conseguenza quota dall'altezza di 300 metri. A quanto ci raccontano testimoni oculari, il pilota avrebbe a quel punto operato una provvidenziale manovra di ammaraggio consentendo a Pegaso un impatto meno violento con l'acqua, a circa 500 metri dalla costa tra Punta del Lazzaretto e la Cala dell'Arenella. Mentre da terra scattava un'imponente macchina dei soccorsi, i 4 superstiti, come ci raccontano, riuscivano senza non poche difficoltà ad uscire dal velivolo che dopo circa 7 minuti si è inabissato. Le operazioni di ricerca, nonostante il buio ed il mare leggermente agitato, hanno dato il loro frutto alle 21:10 quando i 4 naufraghi sono stati recuperati dalla Protezione Civile, da Ido Cavero e Matteo Mariuz e dalla motovedetta dei Carabinieri. A bordo di altre imbarcazioni c'erano Capitaneria di Porto, Polizia Municipale e tanti altri volontari. I 4 erano in buone condizioni nonostante avanzati sintomi di ipotermia dovuti a quegli interminabili 24 minuti in balia delle onde. Sono stati accolti nel porto isolano dalle ambulanze della Misericordia, dal medico Schiaffino, dalla dottoressa della Guardia Medica e da una popolazione sollevata dall'incubo di un'ennesima tragedia per questi "Angeli del Soccorso". Subito è stato allertato l'equipaggio del traghetto Toremar che, atteso l'arrivo da Porto Santo Stefano della motovedetta con a bordo una squadra di soccorso del 118, è partito alla volta dell'Argentario, caricando anche il paziente isolano per il quale era partita la missione di Pegaso; paziente che durante il trasporto si è aggravato in maniera preoccupante. Mi preme segnalare la professionalità e la disponibilità di tutto l'equipaggio della nave nei confronti dei 5 pazienti durante la traversata: il prezioso operato degli uomini di bordo è stato il più bel completamento di un sistema di soccorso che ha funzionato in maniera egregia. All'arrivo a Porto Santo Stefano un'imponente mobilitazione di mezzi del 118, cronisti e fotografi attendevano il traghetto Aegilium e mentre un'ambulanza trasferiva il paziente isolano velocemente a Grosseto, gran parte degli uomini della Centrale Operativa potevano riabbracciare, finalmente sollevati, i propri colleghi. Un incidente dunque che per molti minuti ci ha fatto rivivere l'incubo di quella maledetta notte sulla collina di Tirli; un incidente su cui si dovrà indagare. Crediamo che uno dei prossimi passi obbligati sarà il recupero del velivolo dal fondo del mare per appurare le cause dell'avaria.
Articolo tratto da: Giglio NEWS.it di Giorgio Fanciulli.
Tragedia sfiorata nelle acque dell'Isola del Giglio. Sono stati recuperati e sono tutti salvi i 4 componenti dell'equipaggio dell'eliambulanza del 118 precipitata in mare questa sera nelle acque isolane. A bordo del velivolo, un Augusta A109 Grand, c'erano il pilota Aldo Baldoni, il co-pilota Gaetano Anastrelli, il medico Laura Giordano e l'infermiere professionale Alessio Gonnelli. L'elicottero stava per atterrare sull'isola per prelevare e trasferire all'ospedale Misericordia di Grosseto un paziente isolano quando è avvenuto l'incidente. Alle 20:46, dopo aver dato il "finale" all'equipaggio dell'ambulanza che lo stava attendendo in piazzola, ovvero circa 10-15 secondi prima dell'atterraggio, il velivolo, stando alle prime ricostruzioni, avrebbe perso potenza e di conseguenza quota dall'altezza di 300 metri. A quanto ci raccontano testimoni oculari, il pilota avrebbe a quel punto operato una provvidenziale manovra di ammaraggio consentendo a Pegaso un impatto meno violento con l'acqua, a circa 500 metri dalla costa tra Punta del Lazzaretto e la Cala dell'Arenella. Mentre da terra scattava un'imponente macchina dei soccorsi, i 4 superstiti, come ci raccontano, riuscivano senza non poche difficoltà ad uscire dal velivolo che dopo circa 7 minuti si è inabissato. Le operazioni di ricerca, nonostante il buio ed il mare leggermente agitato, hanno dato il loro frutto alle 21:10 quando i 4 naufraghi sono stati recuperati dalla Protezione Civile, da Ido Cavero e Matteo Mariuz e dalla motovedetta dei Carabinieri. A bordo di altre imbarcazioni c'erano Capitaneria di Porto, Polizia Municipale e tanti altri volontari. I 4 erano in buone condizioni nonostante avanzati sintomi di ipotermia dovuti a quegli interminabili 24 minuti in balia delle onde. Sono stati accolti nel porto isolano dalle ambulanze della Misericordia, dal medico Schiaffino, dalla dottoressa della Guardia Medica e da una popolazione sollevata dall'incubo di un'ennesima tragedia per questi "Angeli del Soccorso". Subito è stato allertato l'equipaggio del traghetto Toremar che, atteso l'arrivo da Porto Santo Stefano della motovedetta con a bordo una squadra di soccorso del 118, è partito alla volta dell'Argentario, caricando anche il paziente isolano per il quale era partita la missione di Pegaso; paziente che durante il trasporto si è aggravato in maniera preoccupante. Mi preme segnalare la professionalità e la disponibilità di tutto l'equipaggio della nave nei confronti dei 5 pazienti durante la traversata: il prezioso operato degli uomini di bordo è stato il più bel completamento di un sistema di soccorso che ha funzionato in maniera egregia. All'arrivo a Porto Santo Stefano un'imponente mobilitazione di mezzi del 118, cronisti e fotografi attendevano il traghetto Aegilium e mentre un'ambulanza trasferiva il paziente isolano velocemente a Grosseto, gran parte degli uomini della Centrale Operativa potevano riabbracciare, finalmente sollevati, i propri colleghi. Un incidente dunque che per molti minuti ci ha fatto rivivere l'incubo di quella maledetta notte sulla collina di Tirli; un incidente su cui si dovrà indagare. Crediamo che uno dei prossimi passi obbligati sarà il recupero del velivolo dal fondo del mare per appurare le cause dell'avaria.
Articolo tratto da: Giglio NEWS.it di Giorgio Fanciulli.
why?
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Only del Giglio-24 November 2007. ELICOTTERO PEGASO CRASHES IN SEA BEFORE THE LAZZARETTO.
Tragedy touched lightly in the waters of Isola del Giglio. Have been recovered and are all save the 4 components crew dell'eliambulanza of 118 deteriorated into sea in the waters tonight island. On board the aircraft, an Augusta A109 Grand, were the pilot Aldo Baldoni, the co-driver Gaetano Anastrelli, the doctor Laura Jordan el'infermiere professional Alessio Gonnelli. The helicopter was about to land on the island to withdraw and transfer to the hospital Mercy Grosseto isolate a patient when the accident occurred. At 20:46, after giving the "final" to the crew dell'ambulanza who was waiting in space, or about 10-15 seconds before landing, the aircraft, according to the first reconstructions, have lost power and consequently from la altitude of 300 meters. What we tell eyewitnesses, the pilot would then made a providential maneuver ammaraggio allowing Pegaso a less violent impact with the water, about 500 meters from the coast between Punta del Lazzaretto and Cala dell'Arenella. While ground scattava an impressive machine of relief, the 4 survivors, as they tell us, could not without a few difficulties to leave the aircraft after about 7 minutes you sank. Operations research, despite the dark and the sea slightly shaken, gave their fruit at 21:10 when the 4 survivors were recovered from the Civil Protection, by Ido Cavero and Matthew Mariuz and motovedetta Carabinieri. On board there were other boats Harbor, Municipal Police and many other volunteers. The 4 were in good condition despite advanced symptoms of hypothermia due to those interminable 24 minutes at the mercy of the waves. They were welcomed at the port by ambulances island of Mercy, Schiaffino doctor, the doctor Doctor and a population raised the nightmare of another tragedy for these "Angels relief." Immediately was alerted the crew of the ferry Toremar that awaited the arrival from Porto Santo Stefano of motovedetta with on board a rescue team of 118, started at a time dell'Argentario, loading the patient to isolate which was match the mission Pegasus; patient during transport got worse in worrying. I would point out the professionalism and readiness of the entire crew of the ship towards the 5 patients during the crossing: the valuable work of the men on board was the most beautiful completion of a rescue system that has worked so egregious. Upon arrival in Porto Santo Stefano a massive mobilization of resources of 118, reporters and photographers awaited the ferry Aegilium and while an ambulance moved quickly isolate the patient in Grosseto, most of the men of Central Operations could re-embrace, finally raised, their colleagues. An accident, therefore, that many minutes for us to relive the nightmare of that cursed night on the hill Tirli, an incident which should be investigated. We believe that one of the next steps will be required to recover the aircraft from the seabed to ascertain the causes monitoring.
Article taken from: Giglio NEWS.it Giorgio Children.
Tragedy touched lightly in the waters of Isola del Giglio. Have been recovered and are all save the 4 components crew dell'eliambulanza of 118 deteriorated into sea in the waters tonight island. On board the aircraft, an Augusta A109 Grand, were the pilot Aldo Baldoni, the co-driver Gaetano Anastrelli, the doctor Laura Jordan el'infermiere professional Alessio Gonnelli. The helicopter was about to land on the island to withdraw and transfer to the hospital Mercy Grosseto isolate a patient when the accident occurred. At 20:46, after giving the "final" to the crew dell'ambulanza who was waiting in space, or about 10-15 seconds before landing, the aircraft, according to the first reconstructions, have lost power and consequently from la altitude of 300 meters. What we tell eyewitnesses, the pilot would then made a providential maneuver ammaraggio allowing Pegaso a less violent impact with the water, about 500 meters from the coast between Punta del Lazzaretto and Cala dell'Arenella. While ground scattava an impressive machine of relief, the 4 survivors, as they tell us, could not without a few difficulties to leave the aircraft after about 7 minutes you sank. Operations research, despite the dark and the sea slightly shaken, gave their fruit at 21:10 when the 4 survivors were recovered from the Civil Protection, by Ido Cavero and Matthew Mariuz and motovedetta Carabinieri. On board there were other boats Harbor, Municipal Police and many other volunteers. The 4 were in good condition despite advanced symptoms of hypothermia due to those interminable 24 minutes at the mercy of the waves. They were welcomed at the port by ambulances island of Mercy, Schiaffino doctor, the doctor Doctor and a population raised the nightmare of another tragedy for these "Angels relief." Immediately was alerted the crew of the ferry Toremar that awaited the arrival from Porto Santo Stefano of motovedetta with on board a rescue team of 118, started at a time dell'Argentario, loading the patient to isolate which was match the mission Pegasus; patient during transport got worse in worrying. I would point out the professionalism and readiness of the entire crew of the ship towards the 5 patients during the crossing: the valuable work of the men on board was the most beautiful completion of a rescue system that has worked so egregious. Upon arrival in Porto Santo Stefano a massive mobilization of resources of 118, reporters and photographers awaited the ferry Aegilium and while an ambulance moved quickly isolate the patient in Grosseto, most of the men of Central Operations could re-embrace, finally raised, their colleagues. An accident, therefore, that many minutes for us to relive the nightmare of that cursed night on the hill Tirli, an incident which should be investigated. We believe that one of the next steps will be required to recover the aircraft from the seabed to ascertain the causes monitoring.
Article taken from: Giglio NEWS.it Giorgio Children.
A following report states that at least one of the occupants had some serious spinal compression injuries, not a typical indication of a smooth landing.
I am thinking that the Grand has a dual channel FADEC for each engine, what are the chances of a dual engine failure in the P&W-207s?
From an Italian helicopter site the 109 just lost power while on the final approach to land and ended up in the water about 1500' from the coast.
The occupants were in the water less than 1hr but they still showed signs of hypothermia.
This particular program has had two other serious accidents in the recent past, one of which was caused by CFIT at night with four fatalities.
To notice, this emergency ditching was at night as well, I'll try to find out whether it was the oncoming night crew or the outgoing day crew.
Crew fatigue and extended duty time may have been a factor.
As far as the seven minutes afloat, given the injuries received by some of the occupants, the floats may have been ripped by the impact (if they inlated at all).
I am thinking that the Grand has a dual channel FADEC for each engine, what are the chances of a dual engine failure in the P&W-207s?
From an Italian helicopter site the 109 just lost power while on the final approach to land and ended up in the water about 1500' from the coast.
The occupants were in the water less than 1hr but they still showed signs of hypothermia.
This particular program has had two other serious accidents in the recent past, one of which was caused by CFIT at night with four fatalities.
To notice, this emergency ditching was at night as well, I'll try to find out whether it was the oncoming night crew or the outgoing day crew.
Crew fatigue and extended duty time may have been a factor.
As far as the seven minutes afloat, given the injuries received by some of the occupants, the floats may have been ripped by the impact (if they inlated at all).
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Terrible news, I am glad that everyone is OK...
Just a question as only a PPL holder, does the A109 (any variant) come with the floats as standard, or are they optional equipment which much be specified for Ops over water?
Asking purely out of interest as I am lucky enough to see a lot of 109's flying from Sywell and wondered where they are "hidden" if they are standard equipment - as I don't recall seeing any!
Just a question as only a PPL holder, does the A109 (any variant) come with the floats as standard, or are they optional equipment which much be specified for Ops over water?
Asking purely out of interest as I am lucky enough to see a lot of 109's flying from Sywell and wondered where they are "hidden" if they are standard equipment - as I don't recall seeing any!
Found a pic of I-REMJ with floats on.
Craig
http://www.aerosekur.com/as_brochure...encyFloats.pdf
This document has some photos on pages 3 and 4 of a 109 Power with the floats packed away, and deployed.
You'd notice if they were on in the hangar they are not particularly subtle.
Held on by removable pins at front and rear of each float to brackets that stick out of the airframe, brackets that you really don't want to bang your head or knee on, they are pretty solid.
Accident Aircraft with floats installed, just for interest.
Gary
http://www.aerosekur.com/as_brochure...encyFloats.pdf
This document has some photos on pages 3 and 4 of a 109 Power with the floats packed away, and deployed.
You'd notice if they were on in the hangar they are not particularly subtle.
Held on by removable pins at front and rear of each float to brackets that stick out of the airframe, brackets that you really don't want to bang your head or knee on, they are pretty solid.
Accident Aircraft with floats installed, just for interest.
Gary
Last edited by VeeAny; 30th Nov 2007 at 18:24.
1) First reports are almost always wrong;
2) PPRUNE rules specifically forbid wild speculation re: accidents.
It's always sad to hear about accidents, but gratifying to know that in this case they all got out safely. Given that, some things about this event are interesting right off the bat. Overwater approach at night, eh? Hmm.
A dual engine-failure is such a remote possibility that we don't even consider it a threat anymore since the invention of containment rings for Rolls Royce/Allison engines. That leaves fuel as one of very few common factors between the engines, so let's assume that they had sufficient of that stuff onboard and let's hope it was good, clean usable stuff.
The translated report did say that the crew had trouble getting out of the ship. Why would that be? Was it upside down in the water? The mention of it sinking so quickly is curious too. It might lead one to believe that the floats were not...you know, inflated. Combine that with no radio distress call and it might make one think that the impact with the water was, err...how to put this gently...unexpected.
But that's just speculation, and we don't want to get into that until we learn more. For now, let's just be happy that they all lived.
Yup, I'd be saying that too, right up until they could prove otherwise. But from 900'?? Hey, how's about one of you guys squeezing the trigger and yelling "MERDE!"
2) PPRUNE rules specifically forbid wild speculation re: accidents.
It's always sad to hear about accidents, but gratifying to know that in this case they all got out safely. Given that, some things about this event are interesting right off the bat. Overwater approach at night, eh? Hmm.
A dual engine-failure is such a remote possibility that we don't even consider it a threat anymore since the invention of containment rings for Rolls Royce/Allison engines. That leaves fuel as one of very few common factors between the engines, so let's assume that they had sufficient of that stuff onboard and let's hope it was good, clean usable stuff.
The translated report did say that the crew had trouble getting out of the ship. Why would that be? Was it upside down in the water? The mention of it sinking so quickly is curious too. It might lead one to believe that the floats were not...you know, inflated. Combine that with no radio distress call and it might make one think that the impact with the water was, err...how to put this gently...unexpected.
But that's just speculation, and we don't want to get into that until we learn more. For now, let's just be happy that they all lived.
according to the first reconstructions, have lost power and consequently from la altitude of 300 meters.
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About this :
"The translated report did say that the crew had trouble getting out of the ship"
Is it possible that if u don't remove the door before the floating inflation u will'have some problem with the door opening?
"The translated report did say that the crew had trouble getting out of the ship"
Is it possible that if u don't remove the door before the floating inflation u will'have some problem with the door opening?
Is it possible that if u don't remove the door before the floating inflation u will'have some problem with the door opening?
But then...
If the floats were inflated, is it possible that the helicopter would have floated for more than seven minutes? Seven minutes seems like a very short time. To me.
probably the other way round with the 109 if that was the case as unlike the 76 the floats are surface/externally mounted, lowering the gear MAY cause a float issue but not being familiar with the 109 this is purely assumption.
Avoid imitations
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Helicraig, the 109 has floats as an option, not standard fit.
Ascend, the issue with the S-76 is that you don't lower the gear AFTER inflating the floats, to avoid damage. As far as I have ever been taught, the floats will be fine if the gear is up, although the preferred option is to lower the gear first.
Ascend, the issue with the S-76 is that you don't lower the gear AFTER inflating the floats, to avoid damage. As far as I have ever been taught, the floats will be fine if the gear is up, although the preferred option is to lower the gear first.
Yeah, Shy, I worded it wrongly and made it look like the floats would be punctured if the wheels weren't down.
We all know that you can pop a 76's floats while the wheels are up or down, but if you lower the wheels after the floats are out, the bags can be punctured.
Terminology, Bloggs!
We all know that you can pop a 76's floats while the wheels are up or down, but if you lower the wheels after the floats are out, the bags can be punctured.
Terminology, Bloggs!
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You don't need floats to remain [basically] on the surface for 7 minutes. Cargo compartments, fuel cells, and other areas can entrap a lot of bouyancy. This can keep a helo on the surface for closer to an hour.
This would not require any float inflation.
Inadvertant reduction of airspeed below T/L [at night] will also feel very much like a loss of power due to late visual cues of what is happening.
Basically what I'm saying is that the available information here tells us next to nothing.
This would not require any float inflation.
Inadvertant reduction of airspeed below T/L [at night] will also feel very much like a loss of power due to late visual cues of what is happening.
Basically what I'm saying is that the available information here tells us next to nothing.
Yes Max, what I meant was that it has two completely separate FADEC systems (ECUs and the rest), one per engine.
Generally a complete loss of power on two generally very reliable engines is caused by only one or two causes: the quality of the juice flowing through them or the lack of juice itself.
I shall refrain from making any comments, however I have a feeling that those "ponies" were galloping when the Grand hit the water and the problem was somewhere else.
It was dark, wasn't it?
Generally a complete loss of power on two generally very reliable engines is caused by only one or two causes: the quality of the juice flowing through them or the lack of juice itself.
I shall refrain from making any comments, however I have a feeling that those "ponies" were galloping when the Grand hit the water and the problem was somewhere else.
It was dark, wasn't it?
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difficult one
The press report does not mention whether the floats had been inflated or not. Neither it says whether the helicopter went upside down at any time during the event.
Given the shape of the aircraft and its CofG position, I think reasonable to assume that the floats have been inflated by the pilot, otherwise the a/c would have capsized almost immediately after landing in the water; especially if sea conditions were not completely calm. Even if the cabin has a good degree of water tightness, to exit the a/c the medical crew may have left the a/c by jettisoning the windows from the sliding doors and maybe the external water level was lower enough to prevent massive water inflow. The pilot, however, only had the choice to jettison the cockpit door in its entirety and the water would have flown in the a/c in a matter of seconds. If the floats had not been inflated, the aircraft would have most probably sunk almost immediately.
There is no mention of the life raft, which, in most recent floats configuration, is packed in the floats themselves, thus not requiring the crew to manually throw it outside of the cabin, when their main concern is to get themselves out of the cabin first.
The air trapped in various areas of the a/c (like for example the fuel tanks and the baggage bay) can help keeping the a/c afloat for a little bit, but not necessarily in its upright position.
As in any other accident I think that it is dangerous to make too much speculation on technical or human factors involved in the chain of events that led to the accident without knowing all the facts and the rescue of the helicopter will probably be necessary to clarify what happened.
I think we must be glad that the "system" overall worked fine and allowed the crew to be safely rescued in a very short amount of time.
Given the shape of the aircraft and its CofG position, I think reasonable to assume that the floats have been inflated by the pilot, otherwise the a/c would have capsized almost immediately after landing in the water; especially if sea conditions were not completely calm. Even if the cabin has a good degree of water tightness, to exit the a/c the medical crew may have left the a/c by jettisoning the windows from the sliding doors and maybe the external water level was lower enough to prevent massive water inflow. The pilot, however, only had the choice to jettison the cockpit door in its entirety and the water would have flown in the a/c in a matter of seconds. If the floats had not been inflated, the aircraft would have most probably sunk almost immediately.
There is no mention of the life raft, which, in most recent floats configuration, is packed in the floats themselves, thus not requiring the crew to manually throw it outside of the cabin, when their main concern is to get themselves out of the cabin first.
The air trapped in various areas of the a/c (like for example the fuel tanks and the baggage bay) can help keeping the a/c afloat for a little bit, but not necessarily in its upright position.
As in any other accident I think that it is dangerous to make too much speculation on technical or human factors involved in the chain of events that led to the accident without knowing all the facts and the rescue of the helicopter will probably be necessary to clarify what happened.
I think we must be glad that the "system" overall worked fine and allowed the crew to be safely rescued in a very short amount of time.