Cockpit video of EMS helicopter landing at accident
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HOLY CRAP!!!!!!
It is just a simple video of a dusk EMS landing! Big deal!!!
As always, people getting on this forum after a simple post and picking the crap out of it in everyway they can. Get a life you blokes.
I myself thought the vision was great and it allows the younger pilots who see it a different perspective of a landing in a fairly well equipped cockpit.
To the Air Methods AS350 crew - well done and thanks for the vision. I hope the weather was OK for your trip with the patient back to the hospital
To everyone else knocking the crap out of it - pull your heads in and write some constructive
It is just a simple video of a dusk EMS landing! Big deal!!!
As always, people getting on this forum after a simple post and picking the crap out of it in everyway they can. Get a life you blokes.
I myself thought the vision was great and it allows the younger pilots who see it a different perspective of a landing in a fairly well equipped cockpit.
To the Air Methods AS350 crew - well done and thanks for the vision. I hope the weather was OK for your trip with the patient back to the hospital
To everyone else knocking the crap out of it - pull your heads in and write some constructive
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To everyone else knocking the crap out of it - pull your heads in and write some constructive
Do pilots who fly single engine helicopters always wear helmets? Do they wear them because they are worried about having an engine failure and it will protect them in a crash?
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Approach appeared nice and stable, no drastic flare. Very controlled rate of descent into an urban scene. No wires seen. No land crews appeared to rush to the a/c.
WELL EFFIN DONE!!
DK
WELL EFFIN DONE!!
DK
"Just a pilot"
Purge, Ol' buddy, let it go. You fly the way you feel safest, but don't tell EMSers how to do a job you apparently are clueless of- and have no interest in learning about.
Yes, engine failures happen. "Power" failures are more common. When they happen, as infrequent as it is, you'd better have a workable survival plan. It may not always result in an undamaged aircraft- As it would from a 100' hover in an Astar- but it has to be survivable. In EMS, power failures are not the greatest hazard, so they're not the first priority for consideration in risk management. Look at the statistics.
I can't speak for Air Methods Corp., my employer, and the largest civilian helicopter EMS operator in the world, but our required flight profile supports my position. They insist that all approaches terminate in a slow vertical descent, from at least 50' above any obstructions.
They issue protective gear, helmets and Nomex, to protect flight personnel. I'm not, and nobody I know, is "worried" about an engine failure. The industry involves much greater risk to be managed than "power failures". Look at the statistics.
Yes, engine failures happen. "Power" failures are more common. When they happen, as infrequent as it is, you'd better have a workable survival plan. It may not always result in an undamaged aircraft- As it would from a 100' hover in an Astar- but it has to be survivable. In EMS, power failures are not the greatest hazard, so they're not the first priority for consideration in risk management. Look at the statistics.
I can't speak for Air Methods Corp., my employer, and the largest civilian helicopter EMS operator in the world, but our required flight profile supports my position. They insist that all approaches terminate in a slow vertical descent, from at least 50' above any obstructions.
They issue protective gear, helmets and Nomex, to protect flight personnel. I'm not, and nobody I know, is "worried" about an engine failure. The industry involves much greater risk to be managed than "power failures". Look at the statistics.
Helicopter helmets
Purge, to answer your question, yes.
All the pilots in the world flying a single engine helicopter wear a nice and shining helmet just like the one in the video, I am surprised you have not been made aware of that before.
Your instructor wears one too, doesn't he?
As a matter of fact you ought to wear a helmet as well, and the flight school where you are learning to fly ought to provide you one for free.
Make sure it is a brand new one and not one passed down from student to student, they do have tendency to wear out.
If they have not done so, they may be witholding from you.
All the pilots in the world flying a single engine helicopter wear a nice and shining helmet just like the one in the video, I am surprised you have not been made aware of that before.
Your instructor wears one too, doesn't he?
As a matter of fact you ought to wear a helmet as well, and the flight school where you are learning to fly ought to provide you one for free.
Make sure it is a brand new one and not one passed down from student to student, they do have tendency to wear out.
If they have not done so, they may be witholding from you.
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Devil,
I have no experience in EMS, however, how on earth, especially in the USA culture of reducing liability does a EMS operator's procedure require you to make all approaches within the avoid curve ?
I see the logic of it's very very unlikely for engine failure and more likely of wires etc... causing accidents and being the safest approach but surely your company cannot insist on that approach.
????
I have no experience in EMS, however, how on earth, especially in the USA culture of reducing liability does a EMS operator's procedure require you to make all approaches within the avoid curve ?
I see the logic of it's very very unlikely for engine failure and more likely of wires etc... causing accidents and being the safest approach but surely your company cannot insist on that approach.
????
120TQ, can you describe an approach to land to a confined area? How many of the last 45 seconds and 200' would be in the shaded area of an HV diagram?
Where would you be more subject to VRS?
Air Methods (and other operators) were able to relocate the HV diagram from the Limitations section of the FM to the Performance section, for determined conditions.
Would having trees and other obstacles in the immediate vicinity of the LZ still render it a "firm and smooth" surface as more often specified at the bottom of the HV curve diagram?
Where would you be more subject to VRS?
Air Methods (and other operators) were able to relocate the HV diagram from the Limitations section of the FM to the Performance section, for determined conditions.
Would having trees and other obstacles in the immediate vicinity of the LZ still render it a "firm and smooth" surface as more often specified at the bottom of the HV curve diagram?
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hey, been there done it, will probably be back in the HV diagram shaded area again on next tight confined area & I like to make sure I'm clear of obstructions before hitting them aswell - a lot of the time it IS the safest option.
My point is - The day the engine does actually quit and the pilot (whoever it is) stuffs it and injures/kills people in the heli and possibly on the ground - is it then sole the responibility of the company who "insist" on approaches being performed in the HV shaded area or still with the PIC.
Surely it can only be the company's responsibility?? Yeah right!!! Does it actually state in the ops manual that all off airfield approaches should come to a 50' hover/very slow airspeed descent into the site ? (which I think is what Devil was saying - i may have mis understood.)
My point is - The day the engine does actually quit and the pilot (whoever it is) stuffs it and injures/kills people in the heli and possibly on the ground - is it then sole the responibility of the company who "insist" on approaches being performed in the HV shaded area or still with the PIC.
Surely it can only be the company's responsibility?? Yeah right!!! Does it actually state in the ops manual that all off airfield approaches should come to a 50' hover/very slow airspeed descent into the site ? (which I think is what Devil was saying - i may have mis understood.)
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"Air Methods (and other operators) were able to relocate the HV diagram from the Limitations section of the FM to the Performance section, for determined conditions"
Tottigol, what are you smoking? I have never seen a helicopter RFM with an H-V curve listed in the limitation section. Unbelievable how misguided some of you are.
Tottigol, what are you smoking? I have never seen a helicopter RFM with an H-V curve listed in the limitation section. Unbelievable how misguided some of you are.
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I see a lot of discussion on the HV diagram. I failed to see someone mentioning the windspeed at the time. I didn't see an airspeed in the vid.
Let's discuss and judge a little more
YB
Let's discuss and judge a little more
YB
"Just a pilot"
120torque asked-
"Does it actually state in the ops manual that all off airfield approaches should come to a 50' hover/very slow airspeed descent into the site ? (which I think is what Devil was saying - i may have mis understood.)"
Most definitely, that is exactly what the GOM requires, quote-
"Rates of descent shall be kept below 200 feet per minute when less than 300 feet above the landing surface. Steep approach angles with a rate of descent greater than 200 feet per minute shall be avoided."
Power failures are NOT, repeat NOT the major danger during scene operations- obstructions are. "Wires are everywhere!" is the EMS mantra. The best way to encounter wires is with one's skids- better than wire cutters at the speeds one is at while on short, short final. The big drawback is that wires are really hard to see in a vertical. Generally, you don't look for wires, you look for the right of way and towers, poles, etc. But, I've seen wires come out of trees, going to and from nowhere that I can see.
Not to mention stumps, signs (especially hard to see), light poles, armco, etc. at the typical roadway scene.
"Does it actually state in the ops manual that all off airfield approaches should come to a 50' hover/very slow airspeed descent into the site ? (which I think is what Devil was saying - i may have mis understood.)"
Most definitely, that is exactly what the GOM requires, quote-
"Rates of descent shall be kept below 200 feet per minute when less than 300 feet above the landing surface. Steep approach angles with a rate of descent greater than 200 feet per minute shall be avoided."
Power failures are NOT, repeat NOT the major danger during scene operations- obstructions are. "Wires are everywhere!" is the EMS mantra. The best way to encounter wires is with one's skids- better than wire cutters at the speeds one is at while on short, short final. The big drawback is that wires are really hard to see in a vertical. Generally, you don't look for wires, you look for the right of way and towers, poles, etc. But, I've seen wires come out of trees, going to and from nowhere that I can see.
Not to mention stumps, signs (especially hard to see), light poles, armco, etc. at the typical roadway scene.
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Accident scenes are absolutely filled with things that can hurt you, some of them stationary, some of them loose and ready to fly into the rotors. If you're slow enough, you can miss the stationary stuff when you finally see it, and sometimes keep the loose stuff from getting up into the rotor. Sometimes. And some of the worst landing areas I've ever been into have been hospital pads. Trees, wires, and poles everywhere, and I've even seen a windsock on a pole 30' high, directly in the only good approach path. They wanted to make sure it could be seen, don't you know. Yes, I'm always mindful of the possibility of engine failure, but it's not even close to the top of my list. I haven't been flying as long as Devil49, only 39.5 years, but I have never had an engine failure, during about 13,000 hours of flying. I may have one tomorrow, but I'll worry about that tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll be watching for all the other stuff trying to kill me.
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Can I make some suggestions to all of you folk out there who are going on about this 'avoid curve'. Firstly, if you haven't done this type of job before, then please think twice before you post. It would be a fabulous video for this website if the pilot did a text book approach into the LS, avoiding the 'avoid', only to take out some power cables he missed in the recce because light was fading, then as he came to the hover, a billboard (see Virgin HEMS petrol station video) blew through the rotors, causing more casualties than you started with!!!!!
FFS, I have survived my current job for 4 years without mishap and my military career for many years without a major accident. Only 2 engine shutdowns, none at a critical time. The flight manual has an avoid area and Jayteeto has an avoid area as well. They do not always match up. To fly safely sometimes means more than a graph that is highly unlikely to happen. He seems to approach down the road, which may be the most sensible GIVEN THE ENVIRONMENT AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENT.
An approach to a high hover, 10 seconds looking for any loose bits blowing about, might be the best option.
FFS, I have survived my current job for 4 years without mishap and my military career for many years without a major accident. Only 2 engine shutdowns, none at a critical time. The flight manual has an avoid area and Jayteeto has an avoid area as well. They do not always match up. To fly safely sometimes means more than a graph that is highly unlikely to happen. He seems to approach down the road, which may be the most sensible GIVEN THE ENVIRONMENT AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENT.
An approach to a high hover, 10 seconds looking for any loose bits blowing about, might be the best option.
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Got to add my tuppence,(about 5 cents now) worth
OK, you guys over the pond call it the "avoid" curve, we call it the H/V curve. Same bloody thing. To insist on using the word "avoid", really misses the point, because all the really useful, and fun stuff that we do happens right there.
Whoever came up with, " thou shalt not enter the avoid curve", must be an idiot. Yes, of course, don't hang around in it if you don't have to, but for God's sake, gents, go fly a Cessna if it bothers you that much. You just need to know when you're in it, how limited your options are when you are in it, and depending on where abouts you are in it, when you're in it, then this will determine how hurt you'll get if it suddenly stops being noisy.
The incorrect reference to it being in the limitations section earlier in this thread says it all. I know that this was corrected already by someone else, but it does speak volumes about the confusion that there seems to be amongst the less experienced.
Please excuse the ramble. Long day, post not proof read, and that Heineken just hit the spot.
Aloha.
Whoever came up with, " thou shalt not enter the avoid curve", must be an idiot. Yes, of course, don't hang around in it if you don't have to, but for God's sake, gents, go fly a Cessna if it bothers you that much. You just need to know when you're in it, how limited your options are when you are in it, and depending on where abouts you are in it, when you're in it, then this will determine how hurt you'll get if it suddenly stops being noisy.
The incorrect reference to it being in the limitations section earlier in this thread says it all. I know that this was corrected already by someone else, but it does speak volumes about the confusion that there seems to be amongst the less experienced.
Please excuse the ramble. Long day, post not proof read, and that Heineken just hit the spot.
Aloha.
Rev and all, the Bell 412 H/V diagram normally resides in the RFM Limitations section, it may not be the same for all aircraft (as a matter of fact, the 430's H/V diagram IS in the performance section).
However, when flying the 412 at a reduced gross weight AND with wind coming from a more restrictive direction (IIRC 30 degrees either side of the nose), we can conduct operations where the H/V diagram is moved to the performance side of the manual.
We are talking 412 in EMS.
It's a more restricted envelope that allow us better performance.
I may not be explaining myself very well.
However, when flying the 412 at a reduced gross weight AND with wind coming from a more restrictive direction (IIRC 30 degrees either side of the nose), we can conduct operations where the H/V diagram is moved to the performance side of the manual.
We are talking 412 in EMS.
It's a more restricted envelope that allow us better performance.
I may not be explaining myself very well.
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Not having any EMS experience (therefore not "allowed" to speak up 
) I quietly refer to the - to some probably well known - BK117 OEI hard landing that occured at one day of the last century:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XueYC...eature=related
Ok, not completely quiet:
they came in with two engines, lost one and still spread the skids; but looking at the outcome... actually they kinda made their intended spot hu?
The H/V curve shouldn't be treated lightly except when other dangers are more prominent than an engine failure.
That beeing said, I would rather hit the wire slowly than at "normal" approach speed if the odds for an engine out are... I don't know; how many thousand hours to 1?
EDIT:
One more thing that came to mind: maybe you guys flying in europe don't realize it, but for some reason the americans don't like to bury their cables, they like 'em out in the open (I mean EVERY wire for every structure has its own pole it seems) - maybe that too makes pilots even more careful when landing on scene (you can actually see the wires in the background of the video)
) I quietly refer to the - to some probably well known - BK117 OEI hard landing that occured at one day of the last century:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XueYC...eature=related
Ok, not completely quiet:
they came in with two engines, lost one and still spread the skids; but looking at the outcome... actually they kinda made their intended spot hu?
The H/V curve shouldn't be treated lightly except when other dangers are more prominent than an engine failure.
That beeing said, I would rather hit the wire slowly than at "normal" approach speed if the odds for an engine out are... I don't know; how many thousand hours to 1?
EDIT:
One more thing that came to mind: maybe you guys flying in europe don't realize it, but for some reason the americans don't like to bury their cables, they like 'em out in the open (I mean EVERY wire for every structure has its own pole it seems) - maybe that too makes pilots even more careful when landing on scene (you can actually see the wires in the background of the video)
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I can't speak for all of Europe, and nothing from recent experience, but in Germany they used to not only have the wires and poles in the open, but they painted both the poles and the wires green so they would blend in and not be a blight on the countryside.
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Point taken Gomer...
but you have to admit that for anybody who's occupation is not "helicopter pilot" the idea is quite pretty isn't it?
Besides, in the part I grew up in (the northwest) there are usually only the high-voltage lines out in the open, which are hard to camouflage due to their size?!
but you have to admit that for anybody who's occupation is not "helicopter pilot" the idea is quite pretty isn't it?
Besides, in the part I grew up in (the northwest) there are usually only the high-voltage lines out in the open, which are hard to camouflage due to their size?!