ATPL(H) upgrade info, AGAIN!!!!!
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helimutt, was your first CPL(H) licence a JAR licence or not? If it was a JAR licence, you could argue that the licence itself infact was gained under JAR-FCL and therefore the theory doesn't matter, it's whether or not your first CPL(H) certificate was issued under JAR or not. Even JAR licences of today isn't completed totally under the JAR (f.e. interim arrangement and FRTOL).
One "?" should be enough.
In that case no, you haven't completed your CPL(H) under JAR. Check with your CAA if they apply the latest amendment though. With earlier amendments you might be fine.
Anybody know what the interpetation could be for the ATPL(H) credit could be if you have done the CPL(H) licence under national legislation and then converted that to a JAR licenec + IR(H) theory under JAR-FCL 2 Ammendemnt 3????
In that case no, you haven't completed your CPL(H) under JAR. Check with your CAA if they apply the latest amendment though. With earlier amendments you might be fine.
helimutt,
JAA FCL2 was implemented on Jan 1st 2000. So you sat the JAA exams, not the CAA exams.
The first CPL(H) theory course provider only started in November 2004. So the CPL(H) theory exams weren't available before this time.
(Incidentally, did you do your first set of exams with BGS?)
So, you must have taken the JAA 'interim' ATPL exams.
Go back and check your results pages. I would even be willing to put money on the fact that they state 'Report of the JAR Airline Transport Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes) theory examinations...'. (But don't worry about the Aeroplane bit - that's there because of the 'interim' arrangements.)
JAA FCL2 was implemented on Jan 1st 2000. So you sat the JAA exams, not the CAA exams.
The first CPL(H) theory course provider only started in November 2004. So the CPL(H) theory exams weren't available before this time.
(Incidentally, did you do your first set of exams with BGS?)
So, you must have taken the JAA 'interim' ATPL exams.
Go back and check your results pages. I would even be willing to put money on the fact that they state 'Report of the JAR Airline Transport Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes) theory examinations...'. (But don't worry about the Aeroplane bit - that's there because of the 'interim' arrangements.)
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Bravo73, many JAA states allowed students that started under the national system to finish it some time even after JAR-FCL was in force. So, under a transit period, the said authority could issue both national and JAR licences.
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Vertolot, that's what I did.
What say ye, hm?
Well, if you don't get the CAA to stick to their first letter or you succeed in trying to convert the licence to f.e. a Swedish licence (you need residency or a job as a pilot here) then, all I can say is
Helimutt, good luck with the ATPL(H) exams. I've struggled with the exams myself (even retaking 9 passed ATPL exams due to the CAA). If you've done the 9 JAR IR exams the ATPL(H) exams should be much smoother. If I put half the energy that I used to complain of the exams and used it to study instead the exams would have been completed much sooner.
But anyway, hm. Good luck either way.
Just remember to take a deep breath before writing the letter to Mr Marsh - 'you catch more wasps with honey than with vinegar.'
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Bravo73, Helimutt wrote "Vertolot, that's what I did.". Then look at what Vertolot wrote.
I don't know for sure what Helimutt's case is, but I do know that he stated that he first gained a national licence, stating it by saying "that's what I did" - referring to a post by Vertolot.
I don't know for sure what Helimutt's case is, but I do know that he stated that he first gained a national licence, stating it by saying "that's what I did" - referring to a post by Vertolot.
) then I'm afraid that all bets are off.Join Date: Jan 2004
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Sorry to take the thread of on a bit of a tangent. But I got a reply from the CAA today after I had put an application in to upgrade from CPL IR to ATPL. Sent them all the bits and pieces covering requirements and logbook etc. They replyed saying I had to take a ATPL (H) Licensing Skill Test.
I had no idea there was such a thing? I was under the impression that holding a JAA CPL + IR with the ATPL theory exams complete, all multi crew, X-C and night hours etc etc it was just a paper exercise.
Anyone got a heads-up
Cheers LB
I had no idea there was such a thing? I was under the impression that holding a JAA CPL + IR with the ATPL theory exams complete, all multi crew, X-C and night hours etc etc it was just a paper exercise.
Anyone got a heads-up
Cheers LB
Lightning_Boy,
From (surprise, surprise) LASORS 2007:
LAS SECTION G
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
12 SECTION G
JAR-FCL ATPL (HELICOPTER)
G3.4 JAR-FCL ATPL (H) SKILL TEST
REQUIREMENTS
An applicant for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) is required to:
1. Pass the ATPL (H) Skill Test with an authorised
Type Rating Examiner.
• The applicant shall demonstrate the ability to
perform as Pilot-in-Command of a helicopter
type certificated for a minimum of two pilots
under IFR, the procedures and manoeuvres
required with a degree of competency
appropriate to the privileges granted to the
holder of an ATPL (H).
• The Skill Test may serve as a skill test for the
issue of the licence and a proficiency check
for the revalidation of the type rating for the
helicopter used in the test, and may be
combined with the skill test for the issue of a
multi-pilot type rating
• The Skill Test may not be taken until all of the
flying experience requirements for the grant of
the licence have been met together with the
required theoretical knowledge.
FULL DETAILS OF THE ATPL (H) SKILL TEST ARE
DETAILED IN APPENDICES 1 & 2 TO JAR-FCL 2.240
& 2.295.
I'm guessing that you probably want to cover all of these bits during your next LPC.
From (surprise, surprise) LASORS 2007:
LAS SECTION G
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
12 SECTION G
JAR-FCL ATPL (HELICOPTER)
G3.4 JAR-FCL ATPL (H) SKILL TEST
REQUIREMENTS
An applicant for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) is required to:
1. Pass the ATPL (H) Skill Test with an authorised
Type Rating Examiner.
• The applicant shall demonstrate the ability to
perform as Pilot-in-Command of a helicopter
type certificated for a minimum of two pilots
under IFR, the procedures and manoeuvres
required with a degree of competency
appropriate to the privileges granted to the
holder of an ATPL (H).
• The Skill Test may serve as a skill test for the
issue of the licence and a proficiency check
for the revalidation of the type rating for the
helicopter used in the test, and may be
combined with the skill test for the issue of a
multi-pilot type rating
• The Skill Test may not be taken until all of the
flying experience requirements for the grant of
the licence have been met together with the
required theoretical knowledge.
FULL DETAILS OF THE ATPL (H) SKILL TEST ARE
DETAILED IN APPENDICES 1 & 2 TO JAR-FCL 2.240
& 2.295.
I'm guessing that you probably want to cover all of these bits during your next LPC.
Better red than ...
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Oh. I was under the impression that Dragon were the first providers of the CPL(H) theory course
My God, why is this stuff all so complex - thank heavens I did the ATPL exams
(or did I ..... 
)
Hovering AND talking
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Atlantic Flight Training were/are doing a CPL(H) interim theory course before Nov 2004; however, as it was/is fixed wing based it is a different course to the one conducted by Dragon!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
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9 exams; you actually sit the CPL(A) exams at Gatwick with the exception of PoF which is an (H) exam. The Dragon course actually sit different exams (on the following two days!) but both are accredited as (H).
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Whirlygig, The interim exams were out in 2000 and 2001 bcause of the changeover period and B73, No unfortunately I didn't sit the ATPL exams in the first place. 
FYI I did the technical exams by DL using the now defunct PPSC, then used BGS DL for the Nav subjects.
Oh well, I dug out the old paperwork to have a look.
7 IR theory exams taken June '05 and Aug '05. The title on the result notification form says:-
Report of the JAR IR THEO Examination for the GB Commercial Pilot's Licence, Aeroplanes.
These subjects were:-
Aircraft Gen Knowledge (IR), Flight perf and planning(IR), Navigation(IR), Human Perf and limit(IR), Meteorology(IR), Air Law and ATC Procedures(IR), IR Communications(IR)
So I guess they were JAR ones.
Now, the CPL(H) exams were taken March, Sept, and the resit Nov all '01.
The subjects sat were as follows:-
1st sitting.
Principles of flight (H), Engines, Electrics and Auto Flight, Airframe systems (H), Loading.
2nd sitting
Radio Aids (CPL), Navigation(CPL), Instruments(CPL), Flight Planning(CPL), Meteorology(theory), Meteorology(Practical), Human perf and limits, Signals, Air Law/Flight Rules.
The titles on the result notification forms are as follows:-
Report of the CPL, ATPL(H) Navigation Examination for the GB Airline Transport Pilots Licence, Helicopters and Gyroplanes.
Report of the Technical BCPL, CPL, ATPL Examination for the GB Commercial Pilots Licence, Helicopters and Gyroplanes.
Ok, so we have the details. I did GB CPL(H) interim exams.
I did the JAR IR theory exams.
I hold a JAR CPL(H) which I would think was only possible because they thought the theory completed was enough for this licence level issue.
My question now is ' IS THIS FAIR TO HAVE TO SIT ANY MORE EXAMS?'
IS IT
FYI I did the technical exams by DL using the now defunct PPSC, then used BGS DL for the Nav subjects.
Oh well, I dug out the old paperwork to have a look.
7 IR theory exams taken June '05 and Aug '05. The title on the result notification form says:-
Report of the JAR IR THEO Examination for the GB Commercial Pilot's Licence, Aeroplanes.
These subjects were:-
Aircraft Gen Knowledge (IR), Flight perf and planning(IR), Navigation(IR), Human Perf and limit(IR), Meteorology(IR), Air Law and ATC Procedures(IR), IR Communications(IR)
So I guess they were JAR ones.
Now, the CPL(H) exams were taken March, Sept, and the resit Nov all '01.
The subjects sat were as follows:-
1st sitting.
Principles of flight (H), Engines, Electrics and Auto Flight, Airframe systems (H), Loading.
2nd sitting
Radio Aids (CPL), Navigation(CPL), Instruments(CPL), Flight Planning(CPL), Meteorology(theory), Meteorology(Practical), Human perf and limits, Signals, Air Law/Flight Rules.
The titles on the result notification forms are as follows:-
Report of the CPL, ATPL(H) Navigation Examination for the GB Airline Transport Pilots Licence, Helicopters and Gyroplanes.
Report of the Technical BCPL, CPL, ATPL Examination for the GB Commercial Pilots Licence, Helicopters and Gyroplanes.
Ok, so we have the details. I did GB CPL(H) interim exams.
I did the JAR IR theory exams.
I hold a JAR CPL(H) which I would think was only possible because they thought the theory completed was enough for this licence level issue.
My question now is ' IS THIS FAIR TO HAVE TO SIT ANY MORE EXAMS?'
IS IT
Last edited by helimutt; 31st Oct 2007 at 20:52. Reason: cos I have nothing better to do
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My JAR ATPL(H) theory exams, completed under the interim arrangement, does say;
"REPORT OF THE JAR ATPL HELICOPTERS EXAMINATION FOR THE GB AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT'S LICENCE, HELICOPTERS AND GYROPLANES"
Still "GB" licence, but they did however say JAR.
Helimutt, was your first CPL(H) licence a JAR licence or not? E.g., have you converted your licence to a JAR licence or did you get a JAR licence in the first place?
"REPORT OF THE JAR ATPL HELICOPTERS EXAMINATION FOR THE GB AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT'S LICENCE, HELICOPTERS AND GYROPLANES"
Still "GB" licence, but they did however say JAR.
Helimutt, was your first CPL(H) licence a JAR licence or not? E.g., have you converted your licence to a JAR licence or did you get a JAR licence in the first place?
Ah, in that case, helimutt, it doesn't look good for you, I'm afraid.
Your first load of exams seem to be CAA exams, not JAA ones. It would appear that in order to get a JAA ATPL, you've have to sit the JAA ATPL exams.
And in the eyes of the CAA/JAA, I don't think that 'fair' really ever comes into it. But it does seem like you are caught between a rock and a hardplace.
But I'm by no means an expert on this. It's just my interpretation of LASORS.
Mr Marsh at the CAA is very fair and will give you the definitive answer.
Anyway, working for JCB wouldn't be so bad, would it?
Your first load of exams seem to be CAA exams, not JAA ones. It would appear that in order to get a JAA ATPL, you've have to sit the JAA ATPL exams.
And in the eyes of the CAA/JAA, I don't think that 'fair' really ever comes into it. But it does seem like you are caught between a rock and a hardplace.
But I'm by no means an expert on this. It's just my interpretation of LASORS.
Mr Marsh at the CAA is very fair and will give you the definitive answer.
Anyway, working for JCB wouldn't be so bad, would it?
Hovering AND talking
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Looking at the subjects which Helimutt sat, I think they appear to be quite CAA-ish, rather than JAA-ish.
Hey! There could be worse jobs than JCB ; at least your uniform will come from Austin Reed!
Cheers
Whirls
Hey! There could be worse jobs than JCB
; at least your uniform will come from Austin Reed!Cheers
Whirls
I've not looked at the rules and regs past and present for this so can't comment with any authority on that, but assuming that the CAA exams were passed and then the JAA IR exams, surely the letter that B73 suggests is worth a go.
You seem to be a victim of the system, you want a licence when the system is in a state of flux, you get off you ar5e and get one, Then do the same for an IR. And because the system didn't seem to accomodate people who did it when you did you are to be in my opinion almost punished.
If I remember rightly under the old national system, with the old exams once you had the hours post CPL(H) you would be awarded an ATPL(H) (perhaps with a flight test I can't remember).
Although common sense does not always seem to apply at the CAA, surely if a national ATPL(H) holder can apply for a JAA ATPL(H) what is the difference between him(or her) and helimutt other than the fact that helimutt took his exams more recently than the ATPL holder, and no I am not having a dig at people with great experience who did their exams a long tiime ago, just trying to create some supportive arguments for helimutt to use in his letter if he writes one.
I hope sense prevails in this instance.
Gary
You seem to be a victim of the system, you want a licence when the system is in a state of flux, you get off you ar5e and get one, Then do the same for an IR. And because the system didn't seem to accomodate people who did it when you did you are to be in my opinion almost punished.
If I remember rightly under the old national system, with the old exams once you had the hours post CPL(H) you would be awarded an ATPL(H) (perhaps with a flight test I can't remember).
Although common sense does not always seem to apply at the CAA, surely if a national ATPL(H) holder can apply for a JAA ATPL(H) what is the difference between him(or her) and helimutt other than the fact that helimutt took his exams more recently than the ATPL holder, and no I am not having a dig at people with great experience who did their exams a long tiime ago, just trying to create some supportive arguments for helimutt to use in his letter if he writes one.
I hope sense prevails in this instance.
Gary