ATPL(H) upgrade info, AGAIN!!!!!
ATPL(H) upgrade info, AGAIN!!!!!
Well, I only thought it would be a matter of time. It looks as though my offshore flying career may well be over before it has really got going. Seems the CAA now want all of the ATPL exams doing AGAIN before ATPL upgrade. As I previously mentioned, I'm not about to do any more exams having done 13CPL(H) exams, 1 resit and then the 7 IR(H) exams in the last few years.
Oh well, I have until next year to work off my bond but then i'll be off doing other things. If anyone wants an onshore S76A+,C rated pilot from next october, with about 2000TT, approx 800 on type, IR(H), 355 rating, please let me know.
To all newbies, make sure you're doing exactly the right thing as I have spent approx £110k to get where I am now, with the only option for future progression to a command offshore, to do the ATPL exams in full. Hows that for one F888ED UP system.
CAA??? No comment.
Oh well, I have until next year to work off my bond but then i'll be off doing other things. If anyone wants an onshore S76A+,C rated pilot from next october, with about 2000TT, approx 800 on type, IR(H), 355 rating, please let me know.
To all newbies, make sure you're doing exactly the right thing as I have spent approx £110k to get where I am now, with the only option for future progression to a command offshore, to do the ATPL exams in full. Hows that for one F888ED UP system.
CAA??? No comment.
Last edited by helimutt; 31st Oct 2007 at 20:40.
Guest
Posts: n/a
By your previous post I thought the CAA said you satisfied the theory requirements for the issue of a ATPL(H)?
I'm curious - Why do you want to go offshore anyway? Surely onshore IR S76 is far more interesting flying?
Maybe appeal to the CAA? They might waive the exams for individual cases?
I'm curious - Why do you want to go offshore anyway? Surely onshore IR S76 is far more interesting flying?
Maybe appeal to the CAA? They might waive the exams for individual cases?
But what is their reason now?
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's coming up to Christmas and the party kitty is a tad depleted?
I thought that if you did your exams before amendment 3 came out, then you had some sort of "grandfather" rights.
Cheers
Whirls
I thought that if you did your exams before amendment 3 came out, then you had some sort of "grandfather" rights.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and
theoretical knowledge
b) Crediting of theoretical knowledge
(..)
(9) An applicant having passed the
theoretical knowledge examination for a
CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained
under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up
to and including Amendment 3 is credited with
the theoretical knowledge requirements for
ATPL(H).
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
gained under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).
[Amdt.1, 01.12.00, Amdt.4, 01.08.06; Amdt.5, 01.12.06;
Amdt.6, 01.02.07]
JAR-FCL 2.050(b) (continued)
---
Did you really say you did 13 CPL(H) exams?!
I suppose that Amendment 4 was released on 1st of August 2006, so if you did gain your CPL(H) and IR(H) before that date (or possibly completed the relevant theory, depending on the interpretation), but you still gained it when JAR-FCL was in force, you do not need to pass any ATPL(H) exams. However, if you did gain your CPL(H) or IR(H) under the national system, before JAR-FCL, then you probably need to take all ATPL(H) exams.
Well, it's possible that you under national UK law can force the authority to keep to what they have stated. The reason for asking the authority of an interpretation is that you should be able to rely on it.
Another way is to convert your certificate to a Swedish JAR, and then apply for an ATPL(H), as Sweden is still using an old amendment to JAR-FCL2.
theoretical knowledge
b) Crediting of theoretical knowledge
(..)
(9) An applicant having passed the
theoretical knowledge examination for a
CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained
under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up
to and including Amendment 3 is credited with
the theoretical knowledge requirements for
ATPL(H).
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
gained under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).
[Amdt.1, 01.12.00, Amdt.4, 01.08.06; Amdt.5, 01.12.06;
Amdt.6, 01.02.07]
JAR-FCL 2.050(b) (continued)
---
Did you really say you did 13 CPL(H) exams?!
I suppose that Amendment 4 was released on 1st of August 2006, so if you did gain your CPL(H) and IR(H) before that date (or possibly completed the relevant theory, depending on the interpretation), but you still gained it when JAR-FCL was in force, you do not need to pass any ATPL(H) exams. However, if you did gain your CPL(H) or IR(H) under the national system, before JAR-FCL, then you probably need to take all ATPL(H) exams.
I got an email saying I didnt need to do exams about two weeks ago.
Another way is to convert your certificate to a Swedish JAR, and then apply for an ATPL(H), as Sweden is still using an old amendment to JAR-FCL2.
Yes I did 5 technical exams and 8 nav exams for the CPL(H). Then had to do the 7 IR(H) exams due to me going past 36months before completing IRT.
Had one resit.
All exams completed after 2002 I think.
To be honest, what hope do we have when the CAA don't even seem to know? Same email and two different people respond with two different answers.
Oh well, I guess an onshore position can't be too bad with the right outfit.
Have sent another mail to CAA for clarification. Watch this space.
Had one resit.
All exams completed after 2002 I think.
To be honest, what hope do we have when the CAA don't even seem to know? Same email and two different people respond with two different answers.
Oh well, I guess an onshore position can't be too bad with the right outfit.
Have sent another mail to CAA for clarification. Watch this space.
Last edited by helimutt; 31st Oct 2007 at 14:45.
Don't worry, helimutt. You've got it right. You passed your exams under the previous amendment so your 'CPL + IR theory' still effectively equals 'ATPL theory'.
It's not for the first time that a drone at the CAA has got it wrong. They are applying the Amendment 6 rules to you when they shouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the person who sent you the second mail isn't even aware of the differences between the different amendments.
Martin1234 has got it right with his quote from JAR-FCL2.
As suggested, if in doubt, take it up with Martin Marsh. A very considered, POLITE (
) letter will go a long way to clearing up the confusion.
Anyway, if you do come back onshore, I'm sure that JCB will take you on with open arms!
PS IIRC, the CPL(H) exams weren't available back in 2002. Are you sure that you didn't sit the JAA 'interim' ATPL(H) exams?
It's not for the first time that a drone at the CAA has got it wrong. They are applying the Amendment 6 rules to you when they shouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the person who sent you the second mail isn't even aware of the differences between the different amendments.
Martin1234 has got it right with his quote from JAR-FCL2.
As suggested, if in doubt, take it up with Martin Marsh. A very considered, POLITE (
) letter will go a long way to clearing up the confusion.Anyway, if you do come back onshore, I'm sure that JCB will take you on with open arms!
PS IIRC, the CPL(H) exams weren't available back in 2002. Are you sure that you didn't sit the JAA 'interim' ATPL(H) exams?
Do you mean that you sat the ATPL(H) exams in 2001?
Oh. I was under the impression that Dragon were the first providers of the CPL(H) theory course. And they only started in 2003 or 2004. I guess that I was wrong...
Hang on. This from the Dragon website:
If it was back in 2001, I'm pretty sure that you would've taken the JAA (ie not CAA) ATPL theory exams. (This also tallys with you having taken 13 exams - there are only 9 CPL(H) exams.) In which case, you should be 'protected' under the grandfather rights that Martin1234 quoted above.
Hang on. This from the Dragon website:
Dragon Helicopters’ JAA CPL(H) Theoretical Knowledge Distance Learning Course
This is the first JAA-approved CPL(H) TK course within the Joint Aviation Authorities group of countries and was approved by the UK Civil Aviation Authority in November 2004.
This is the first JAA-approved CPL(H) TK course within the Joint Aviation Authorities group of countries and was approved by the UK Civil Aviation Authority in November 2004.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did 5 technical exams and 8 nav exams for the CPL(H)
Nope, The CPL(H) exams in 2001.
As mentioned, try to use the answer from the CAA that is in your favour.
As I sit here and ponder on life in general (and what the wx will be like tomorrow morning) I think I must have done the 'CAA UK' CPL(H) exams back in 2001 which didn't include Perf A but did include the Helicopter Technical paper. Although hydraulics and pressurisation weren't on it IIRC. Hence the 13 exams.
The 7 IR(H) exams must have been JAR though beause that was only two years ago.
The 7 IR(H) exams must have been JAR though beause that was only two years ago.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anybody know what the interpetation could be for the ATPL(H) credit could be if you have done the CPL(H) licence under national legislation and then converted that to a JAR licenec + IR(H) theory under JAR-FCL 2 Ammendemnt 3????
Cheers
Cheers
Guest
Posts: n/a
The CAA really should publish some guidance. They made a real pigs ear of the whole ATPL(H)/CPL(H)+IR/Interim business and obviously lots of people are stuck not knowing what to do, or what exams they need to re-take. It's not helping the industry.
Vertolot, that's what I did.
I have all of the exam result papers still so can see what I sat. You would think the CAA could just log into their database and see what I did, when and what I can do with it. If only life was that easy.
I have all of the exam result papers still so can see what I sat. You would think the CAA could just log into their database and see what I did, when and what I can do with it. If only life was that easy.