Cpl(h)ir
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Thanks guys.. Gulp.. It was purely hypothetical as I am trying to identify the best route for my training to give me the best chance of flying for a living based on my budget.. There really aren't any shortcuts are there?? I don't mean in experience.. I mean in pounds sterling.... 
HAI here I come...
HAI here I come...
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Bravo73
I am not shy about it mate.. I am selling my house and based on my estimated return after all debts settled etc we should have about £50k + a few pennies... That is a pessimistic figure..
SL
I am not shy about it mate.. I am selling my house and based on my estimated return after all debts settled etc we should have about £50k + a few pennies... That is a pessimistic figure..
SL
As it stands, that will probably only get you a CPL(H). (Even if you go to HAI, once you factor in the cost of living for 18 months etc.)
As you've probably already picked up on other threads, a CPL(H) on it's own is next to useless.
You're probably looking at about £60-70k if you budget for hour building and an FI rating. A little bit more if you want to go down the higher risk (offshore) IR route. If you want to stay onshore and fly SPIFR somewhere down the line, the bill is much nearer to £100k.
Once you factor in ALL of the costs, training in the US doesn't actually seem to save that much. And what you save in pounds sterling, you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK.
Best of luck either way.
As you've probably already picked up on other threads, a CPL(H) on it's own is next to useless.
You're probably looking at about £60-70k if you budget for hour building and an FI rating. A little bit more if you want to go down the higher risk (offshore) IR route. If you want to stay onshore and fly SPIFR somewhere down the line, the bill is much nearer to £100k.
Once you factor in ALL of the costs, training in the US doesn't actually seem to save that much. And what you save in pounds sterling, you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK.
Best of luck either way.
Scrumpy,
Do your JAA Cpl(h) and your IR exams then approach the North Sea company's if this is the route for you! I know that CHC have been sponsoring guys for their IR and not just ex mil.
The market is boomng come on up!
Do your JAA Cpl(h) and your IR exams then approach the North Sea company's if this is the route for you! I know that CHC have been sponsoring guys for their IR and not just ex mil.
The market is boomng come on up!
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Thank you all for your advice both on the thread and via PM.
Bravo73,
Let us not discount option 'A' because I will sure as hell be trying it, just like every now and then I play the lottery.. Difference is I think Option A has much better odds than winning the lottery?
Not by much though..
I will be doing this to find work within the industry so, I will take every chance, every opportunity and do every dirty job to the best of my ability until I achieve my goal.
This is going to be a challenge but that is not why I am doing it.. I want to fly, pure and simple. I enjoy flying so much that I would like to do it for a living. I only wish I had the common sense to have done it 20 years ago.
Anyway, I have a Physics and Maths book to bury my head in as unfortunately, even with £5m+ budgets, I never needed algebraic equations and have therefore forgotten them...
So Oak technologies and I have a date for the next many many weekends..
SL..
Bravo73,
Let us not discount option 'A' because I will sure as hell be trying it, just like every now and then I play the lottery.. Difference is I think Option A has much better odds than winning the lottery?
Not by much though.. I will be doing this to find work within the industry so, I will take every chance, every opportunity and do every dirty job to the best of my ability until I achieve my goal.
This is going to be a challenge but that is not why I am doing it.. I want to fly, pure and simple. I enjoy flying so much that I would like to do it for a living. I only wish I had the common sense to have done it 20 years ago.
Anyway, I have a Physics and Maths book to bury my head in as unfortunately, even with £5m+ budgets, I never needed algebraic equations and have therefore forgotten them...
So Oak technologies and I have a date for the next many many weekends..SL..
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Oh HM you are just SO mean
Never knew you could be so bitter
Strangely given the last few days I can answer your question 'Yes'
Guess I'll just have to make do with varied routes, newer aircraft and more money
Think it's time we called a truce (you know I'm just pulling yer leg)
Fly safe buddy
FW
Never knew you could be so bitter
Strangely given the last few days I can answer your question 'Yes'
Guess I'll just have to make do with varied routes, newer aircraft and more money
Think it's time we called a truce
(you know I'm just pulling yer leg)Fly safe buddy
FW
You want to fly, pure and simple. I hope so cos that's all offshore is! LOL.
Make sure you only get what you wish for.
FW, we have too much fun ripping it out of previous employers to fall out over a 'few shiny new a/c' (you bas***d)
Anyway, i'm off to work. Foggy offshore I wonder? Oh joy!
Make sure you only get what you wish for.
FW, we have too much fun ripping it out of previous employers to fall out over a 'few shiny new a/c' (you bas***d)
Anyway, i'm off to work. Foggy offshore I wonder? Oh joy!
Bravo 73
"I suggest that you contact the JAA IR training providers for the past history of FAA conversion students"
"[Training in the US] ... you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK"
Wonder what those JAR IR training providers might say? Well, if they are British IR training providers, no doubt the frequency with which FAA (& other ICAO) IR conversions prove to be well short of the standard & need to fly extra hours. How ofen have I heard this of late? But only from people training in the UK and not from other European JAR IR providers. Know plenty of people who have done FAA IR conversions and who have done it in minimums; in other European countries. But, of course, their standards will be lower...
Similarly, why should training in the US mean a poorer reputation in the UK? There are plenty of badly and well-trained folk both sides of the pond. Why do so many British pilots think they are the standard-setters?
When I came to the UK from the States, I kept hearing much the same and how US-trained pilots couldn't navigate or were hopeless at RT. And what have I found: loads of UK-trained pilots who are crap at RT and can't navigate without a GPS.
The snobbery is tedious and weakly founded.
TT
"I suggest that you contact the JAA IR training providers for the past history of FAA conversion students"
"[Training in the US] ... you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK"
Wonder what those JAR IR training providers might say? Well, if they are British IR training providers, no doubt the frequency with which FAA (& other ICAO) IR conversions prove to be well short of the standard & need to fly extra hours. How ofen have I heard this of late? But only from people training in the UK and not from other European JAR IR providers. Know plenty of people who have done FAA IR conversions and who have done it in minimums; in other European countries. But, of course, their standards will be lower...
Similarly, why should training in the US mean a poorer reputation in the UK? There are plenty of badly and well-trained folk both sides of the pond. Why do so many British pilots think they are the standard-setters?
When I came to the UK from the States, I kept hearing much the same and how US-trained pilots couldn't navigate or were hopeless at RT. And what have I found: loads of UK-trained pilots who are crap at RT and can't navigate without a GPS.
The snobbery is tedious and weakly founded.
TT
Last edited by Torquetalk; 14th Oct 2007 at 18:14.
Torquetalk,
Just telling it how it is, I'm afraid.
I can give you a couple of recent examples but I am hesitant to because I don't really want the individuals concerned to read this. But one FAA IR holder required 36 hours of training pre-test (ie more than the required 15hrs!) and another FAA CFII who couldn't even track an ADF needle.
I didn't say that all FAA IR holders require more than the 15hrs but from speaking to the IR instructors, it would certainly seem that a lot do. Remember that we are talking about budgeting for training here - I was just warning SL to not just budget for the 15hrs.
Out of interest, have you sat the UK JAA IRT yet?
And you've got the wrong end of the stick re my reference to 'reputation'. I wasn't implying that all US trained pilots have a bad reputation. I was saying that because nobody in the UK knows who you are personally, you won't have any reputation at all. And when it comes to getting that first job, this can be critical. Your prospective new boss is going to call whoever you did your training with - because the chances are that he knows him!
Just telling it how it is, I'm afraid.
I can give you a couple of recent examples but I am hesitant to because I don't really want the individuals concerned to read this. But one FAA IR holder required 36 hours of training pre-test (ie more than the required 15hrs!) and another FAA CFII who couldn't even track an ADF needle.
I didn't say that all FAA IR holders require more than the 15hrs but from speaking to the IR instructors, it would certainly seem that a lot do. Remember that we are talking about budgeting for training here - I was just warning SL to not just budget for the 15hrs.
Out of interest, have you sat the UK JAA IRT yet?
And you've got the wrong end of the stick re my reference to 'reputation'. I wasn't implying that all US trained pilots have a bad reputation. I was saying that because nobody in the UK knows who you are personally, you won't have any reputation at all. And when it comes to getting that first job, this can be critical. Your prospective new boss is going to call whoever you did your training with - because the chances are that he knows him!
Your ADF example is fair enough: were they rusty or weak (ADF is lttle used in the States) or clueless? Some courses (Billund in Denmark concentrate on giving students additional input in this as it is a recognised weak area. But 36 hours for someone who holds an IR? So much for standardisation: how different can a hold; ILS; tracking etc be?
In answer to your question, no I haven't done the UK IRT. Know several people who have though; and of those, both passes and failures: (conversions and full). And the question remains: why do these conversions seem to take more hours in the UK than other countries (from the limited sample I have to call on)?
Point taken re. meaning of reputation.
TT
In answer to your question, no I haven't done the UK IRT. Know several people who have though; and of those, both passes and failures: (conversions and full). And the question remains: why do these conversions seem to take more hours in the UK than other countries (from the limited sample I have to call on)?
Point taken re. meaning of reputation.
TT
TT,
You've managed to drift this thread some way from it's roots. Why not start another or just add to an existing FAA vs JAA IR thread?
But to quickly answer your questions:
Pretty clueless (from the accounts that I heard.) Especially considering that they were an instrument instructor.
Different enough, it would seem. Remember that you are doing all of this in a completely different environment. Sorry for stating the obvious, but a twin turbine helicopter is a very different beast to an R22/S300. This can be even trickier if you have only completed your first twin TR a matter of weeks beforehand.
No idea, I'm afraid. Maybe that's a question for the respective examining authorities?
Good luck for when you do. Then maybe you can give us your assessment of the differences between the respective courses and tests.
Still think that I'm a tedious, weakly-founded snob?
You've managed to drift this thread some way from it's roots. Why not start another or just add to an existing FAA vs JAA IR thread?
But to quickly answer your questions:
Different enough, it would seem. Remember that you are doing all of this in a completely different environment. Sorry for stating the obvious, but a twin turbine helicopter is a very different beast to an R22/S300. This can be even trickier if you have only completed your first twin TR a matter of weeks beforehand.
Good luck for when you do. Then maybe you can give us your assessment of the differences between the respective courses and tests.
Still think that I'm a tedious, weakly-founded snob?
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Erm... Thank you all.. let's keep it civil please peeps.. After all we all do (want to do) the same thing.... Some better some worse.. Were in life is that not true?? Missinterpretatioin was easy in your previous mail Bravo73 so I am certain TT felt suitably abashed hence the vieled (spelling?) apology..
K GOOD NEWS!!! My house just got valued for way more than I thought so less scrimping and more contingency money (providing the arse does not fall out of our economy in the next 6 months...)
I figure if I train with HAI then nearly all potential employers will know to phone Patrick and get the low down.. In fact I will pay for the call.. Plus, I would also figure my IR instructor in the UK will have a fair idea if I can fly, take instruction and evidence good decision making and Tea making??
Thank you for all of your advice on this matter, especially the PM's and big thanks to TH for creating the platform for me to get so much feedback.. Not your intention I am sure but as I have said many times, I am getting into this from scratch so I will grab every opportunity that is available to me..
Cheers all
SL
K GOOD NEWS!!! My house just got valued for way more than I thought so less scrimping and more contingency money (providing the arse does not fall out of our economy in the next 6 months...)
I figure if I train with HAI then nearly all potential employers will know to phone Patrick and get the low down.. In fact I will pay for the call.. Plus, I would also figure my IR instructor in the UK will have a fair idea if I can fly, take instruction and evidence good decision making and Tea making??
Thank you for all of your advice on this matter, especially the PM's and big thanks to TH for creating the platform for me to get so much feedback.. Not your intention I am sure but as I have said many times, I am getting into this from scratch so I will grab every opportunity that is available to me..
Cheers all
SL
Bravo 73
My comments were not personally directed at you, only at a kind of attitude that is quite common, which you appeared to be giving voice to. Give a little ground, British pilots do think their PPLs, CPLs and IRs are superior to the FAA equivelants. FAA qualified pilots don't appear to be so opinionated (or interested?) on this theme. I was merely saying that this generic opinion is tedious and often ill-founded.
ScrumpyLuvver is right in both respects: Your comments re. reputation were open to interpretation; I interpreted wrongly; and my last remark was a veiled apology for that.
I fail to see, though, how flying a more stable machine IR (a Bell for example) can be harder than flying an R22 or 300. Your point about machine familiarity accepted, a Bell is a much easier aircraft to fly than either an R22 or 300. As to why JAR IR candidates often end up doing skills tests in aircraft with which they have little familiarity, well, that's another kettle of ball games eh?
As to doing the UK IRT - probably won't
Yours in sport.
TT
Good luck SL
My comments were not personally directed at you, only at a kind of attitude that is quite common, which you appeared to be giving voice to. Give a little ground, British pilots do think their PPLs, CPLs and IRs are superior to the FAA equivelants. FAA qualified pilots don't appear to be so opinionated (or interested?) on this theme. I was merely saying that this generic opinion is tedious and often ill-founded.
ScrumpyLuvver is right in both respects: Your comments re. reputation were open to interpretation; I interpreted wrongly; and my last remark was a veiled apology for that.
I fail to see, though, how flying a more stable machine IR (a Bell for example) can be harder than flying an R22 or 300. Your point about machine familiarity accepted, a Bell is a much easier aircraft to fly than either an R22 or 300. As to why JAR IR candidates often end up doing skills tests in aircraft with which they have little familiarity, well, that's another kettle of ball games eh?
As to doing the UK IRT - probably won't
Yours in sport.
TT
Good luck SL
Last edited by Torquetalk; 15th Oct 2007 at 17:39.
ATPL theory update
OK, here is what I got back from the CAA today. This helps clear things up for me.
I can confirm as per JAR-FCL 2.285 (amendment 3) the holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H).
The above is also noted in JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and theoretical knowledge (amendment 6)
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).
Safe flying!!
I can confirm as per JAR-FCL 2.285 (amendment 3) the holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H).
The above is also noted in JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and theoretical knowledge (amendment 6)
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).
Safe flying!!
Amendment 6 or 3 with variations ?
A quote from the AIC which supposedly cleared this up
Further in the AIC it says which bits they've actually adopted.
Clear as mud now ?
I think, but its opinion only that we are officialy Amdt 3 but with these bits of 6 included.
Gary
The CAA is therefore introducing a number of changes to the requirements of JAR-FCL 2, Amendment 3 with effect from
19 July 2007. These changes are contained in JAR-FCL 2, Amendment 6 (a corrigendum to Amendment 5) which was
published on 1 February 2007
19 July 2007. These changes are contained in JAR-FCL 2, Amendment 6 (a corrigendum to Amendment 5) which was
published on 1 February 2007
Clear as mud now ?
I think, but its opinion only that we are officialy Amdt 3 but with these bits of 6 included.
Gary