Cpl(h)ir
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Cpl(h)ir
Having completed the JAA CPL(H) writtens in March 2005 and the flight course in May of the same year; it is now time to contemplate the IR. Is the 36-Month validity period for the exams relevant as per the ATPL writtens?
The CAA have stated ( although I think incorrectly ) that to start an IR(H) course you must have completed the IR(H) exams. Having read LASORS and JAR-FCL I appear to have completed the relevant exams minus the IFR Comms. Who is correct? Can anyone shine any light on this subject as flight training schools also appear confused? Can you do a CPL(H)IR without doing the ATPL exams? Can't PPL's do an IR?
Has anyone out there for completed a CPL(H) with IR?
The CAA have stated ( although I think incorrectly ) that to start an IR(H) course you must have completed the IR(H) exams. Having read LASORS and JAR-FCL I appear to have completed the relevant exams minus the IFR Comms. Who is correct? Can anyone shine any light on this subject as flight training schools also appear confused? Can you do a CPL(H)IR without doing the ATPL exams? Can't PPL's do an IR?
Has anyone out there for completed a CPL(H) with IR?
I think that the CAA are correct, the ATPLs being at a different level and with a couple of extra subjects thrown in, cover you for the IR(H) knowledge.
JAR FCL 2.470 shows the table of exams to be passed for which level you have chosen.
The CPL(H) exams will only ever allow you to be awarded a CPL(H) and no IR(H) until you take the 7 IR(H) exams. This is why for some people the Dragon / Atlantic option is best if they never want to fly IMC. The others are generally best advised to go along another route Bristol, Cabair etc and do the ATPLS, thus getting all the exams out of the way at the beginning, but starting the clock from the Month of the last pass.
I have a CPL(H)/IR and will probably never hold an ATPL(H) as I have no multi crew time. I did however complete the ATPL(H) writtens prior to getting an IR.
JAR FCL does use the word applicant, so you can probably start the flying training without having passed all the exams (sensible or not is another matter), you just can't apply for the rating.
I am not an IRI so may be talking b*ll*cks but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
Gary
JAR FCL 2.470 shows the table of exams to be passed for which level you have chosen.
The CPL(H) exams will only ever allow you to be awarded a CPL(H) and no IR(H) until you take the 7 IR(H) exams. This is why for some people the Dragon / Atlantic option is best if they never want to fly IMC. The others are generally best advised to go along another route Bristol, Cabair etc and do the ATPLS, thus getting all the exams out of the way at the beginning, but starting the clock from the Month of the last pass.
I have a CPL(H)/IR and will probably never hold an ATPL(H) as I have no multi crew time. I did however complete the ATPL(H) writtens prior to getting an IR.
JAR FCL does use the word applicant, so you can probably start the flying training without having passed all the exams (sensible or not is another matter), you just can't apply for the rating.
I am not an IRI so may be talking b*ll*cks but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
Gary
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Hi Norunway,
Unfortunately I have completed the CPL Exams and not the ATPL; This is where the confusion arises!! I do not see however any reason why I cannot complete the IR Course with my CPL!!
Unfortunately I have completed the CPL Exams and not the ATPL; This is where the confusion arises!! I do not see however any reason why I cannot complete the IR Course with my CPL!!
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Thanks VeeAny,
There seems to be confusion all around on this matter. The CPL was designed for persons such as I who wished to never operate multi-crew helis on the North Sea flying aircraft in excess of 5700Kg's. The CPL was never intended just to be a VFR License but restrict the size of helicopter to fly. This has always been my interpretation. If someone wishes to pursue an IR ( whether it be on a CPL / ATPL or PPL Ticket ) shouldn't this be encouraged and not discouraged as appears to be the current situation?
There seems to be confusion all around on this matter. The CPL was designed for persons such as I who wished to never operate multi-crew helis on the North Sea flying aircraft in excess of 5700Kg's. The CPL was never intended just to be a VFR License but restrict the size of helicopter to fly. This has always been my interpretation. If someone wishes to pursue an IR ( whether it be on a CPL / ATPL or PPL Ticket ) shouldn't this be encouraged and not discouraged as appears to be the current situation?
Trident,
If you have passed the CPL(H) exams only, then you need to pass the IR (or ATPL) exams before you can sit the IRT. The exam titles might be similar but the content is very different!
HTH
If you have passed the CPL(H) exams only, then you need to pass the IR (or ATPL) exams before you can sit the IRT. The exam titles might be similar but the content is very different!
HTH
Last edited by Bravo73; 11th Oct 2007 at 10:24. Reason: Edited for formatting
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Bravo73,
LASORS & JAR FCL2 refer to the 7-exams but do not state whether they are ATPL or CPL Level..... this further deepens the confusion; and it has to be said that the Feds are confused also!!
JAR FCL 2.470 Para c. makes no mention of ATPL or CPL Standard as does LASORS J1.4.
LASORS & JAR FCL2 refer to the 7-exams but do not state whether they are ATPL or CPL Level..... this further deepens the confusion; and it has to be said that the Feds are confused also!!
JAR FCL 2.470 Para c. makes no mention of ATPL or CPL Standard as does LASORS J1.4.
The IR exams are, in essence, a little below ATPL level (if you can actually draw that parallel.) The CPL exams are basically the VFR elements of the ATPL syllabii. The IR exams are just about the rest (without the MRJT ie 737 sections.)
I'm afraid that I don't have a LASORS reference on me because I am currently sitting in a hotel lobby, waiting for my pax!
I'm afraid that I don't have a LASORS reference on me because I am currently sitting in a hotel lobby, waiting for my pax!
Last edited by Bravo73; 11th Oct 2007 at 10:25. Reason: Edited for formatting
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Just to confuse the issue what happens when,
You have passed all ATPL exams and within the 36months only achieve a CPL (not an IR), clearly the IR is our but does your licence then remain soley a CPL until doing the exams again or are you "in-valid" all togther because the exams are intended for the issue of an ATPL (CPL+IR)
MADY
You have passed all ATPL exams and within the 36months only achieve a CPL (not an IR), clearly the IR is our but does your licence then remain soley a CPL until doing the exams again or are you "in-valid" all togther because the exams are intended for the issue of an ATPL (CPL+IR)
MADY
This old chestnut again!! I am awaiting a response from CAA on similar subject. First wrote to them 21st September. Then sent again 2nd Oct. Still waiting for a reply!! That's more than 10 days for a response.
I have CPL(H), but the exam credits ran out after more than the allowed 36 months, so did the 7 IR theory exams and then the IR. Now hold a CPL(H)(IR), with multi-eng time and multi-crew but I can't get an answer if I can upgrade to ATPL(H) once I meet the night requirements. I'm not doing the exams again! PS I did 13 CPL(H) exams and 1 resit.
21 exams is enough for anyone I think. It would be nice if the CAA even acknowledged my enquiry.
I have CPL(H), but the exam credits ran out after more than the allowed 36 months, so did the 7 IR theory exams and then the IR. Now hold a CPL(H)(IR), with multi-eng time and multi-crew but I can't get an answer if I can upgrade to ATPL(H) once I meet the night requirements. I'm not doing the exams again! PS I did 13 CPL(H) exams and 1 resit.
21 exams is enough for anyone I think. It would be nice if the CAA even acknowledged my enquiry.
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HM,
Could be worse............
I did the ATPL's, but don't fly prescribed multi-crew
Guess I'll always have a CPL/IR
Not that holding a full ATP will ever be an issue where I work
FW
Ps If sitting them again is that scary, you'll have to hang tight till I can find you a suitable vacancy down here
Could be worse............
I did the ATPL's, but don't fly prescribed multi-crew
Guess I'll always have a CPL/IR
Not that holding a full ATP will ever be an issue where I work
FW
Ps If sitting them again is that scary, you'll have to hang tight till I can find you a suitable vacancy down here
Ok, i'm sitting waiting Flingingwings. 12 months to go!
Callie Dog, There's no way I want to remain Co-pilot forever!
Okay, I need some experience first but hey, some people are destined to always be co-pilots, or at least should be.
Callie Dog, There's no way I want to remain Co-pilot forever!
Okay, I need some experience first but hey, some people are destined to always be co-pilots, or at least should be.
This is all because the JAR-FCL 2 when it first came out it was a copy/paste of JAR-FCL 1. Theese time requirements and multi or single pilot time works fine in the world of plank drivers NOT ours.
It is just question of time, for the wizzards in Brussel(or where ever they are) to pull their heads out of each other putt and rewrite this crap
It is just question of time, for the wizzards in Brussel(or where ever they are) to pull their heads out of each other putt and rewrite this crap
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This is all because the JAR-FCL 2 when it first came out it was a copy/paste of JAR-FCL 1
Cheers
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kk As an FAA CPL(H) CFII IR with 1000+hrs, would coming back to the UK and doing the JAA IR (£26000!!! ) constitute a full JAA CPL(H) IR conversion or would I still have to do a seperate CPL conversion?
SL
) constitute a full JAA CPL(H) IR conversion or would I still have to do a seperate CPL conversion?SL
you'd need to do the JAR CPL /atpl exams and the CPL course. You will get a reduction in hours requirement for the IR I think. Some people on here did an FAA IR and converted it to JAR IR in 15 hours I think. You would need to do the type conversion first though on to say a 355.
Although the 15hrs is the minimum conversion time, many take more than this to convert.
I suggest that you contact the JAA IR training providers for the past history of FAA conversion students.
And yes, the CPL(H) conversion course is a different course to the IR(H) course. However, if you were feeling brave, you could probably try to do them at the same time.