Underweight for R22
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Underweight for R22
Hi
Doing my PPL(H) at the moment, and have done a bit of solo.
My trouble is, I'm only just over 8 stone (112 lb), so have to add extra weight to the helicopter (R22). Even with the extra weight, (added under my seat), I still feel uncomfortable controlling the helicopter due to it feeling so light, and with the cylic almost at arms length. This is still the case with full fuel.
Flying duel, I don't have any trouble, it feels heavier, and more 'in balance'
Could I also put weights under the empty passenger seat to help?
If anybody has any suggestions, pleaseeee could you let me know?!
Doing my PPL(H) at the moment, and have done a bit of solo.
My trouble is, I'm only just over 8 stone (112 lb), so have to add extra weight to the helicopter (R22). Even with the extra weight, (added under my seat), I still feel uncomfortable controlling the helicopter due to it feeling so light, and with the cylic almost at arms length. This is still the case with full fuel.
Flying duel, I don't have any trouble, it feels heavier, and more 'in balance'
Could I also put weights under the empty passenger seat to help?
If anybody has any suggestions, pleaseeee could you let me know?!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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I had the opposite, I weighed in at a modest 220lbs and most days needed to ensure W&B were able to be observed,
My suggestion eat more grub bulk up and then you wont have the problem, thing is though you;ll then struggle to find clothes to fit, better stay as you are and place extra weight under the Pax seat inside cubby hole, that way you wont need as much on your side.
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
My suggestion eat more grub bulk up and then you wont have the problem, thing is though you;ll then struggle to find clothes to fit, better stay as you are and place extra weight under the Pax seat inside cubby hole, that way you wont need as much on your side.
Peter R-B
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I can't see why not. I believe it's max 50 lbs in each baggage compartment to a max 240 lbs total for seat and baggage compartment each side... best idea is prob to do a W&B for you and a lump of weight; make sure you'll be OK both on taking off with full fuel and landing with almost none.
I know (being fairly light myself) it takes a lot of getting used to flying solo after you've done a lot with an instructor. I took a 22 up the other day after recently doing over 35 hours duel with an instructor / examiner, and it still felt weird! Quite nice having an R22 with more power than you need for once though!
I know (being fairly light myself) it takes a lot of getting used to flying solo after you've done a lot with an instructor. I took a 22 up the other day after recently doing over 35 hours duel with an instructor / examiner, and it still felt weird! Quite nice having an R22 with more power than you need for once though!
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G String,
I am an instructor myself and I ran a few times with very light students into the same problem that you have.
You can certainly fill the underseat storage on both sides to capacity if you want, that will certainly help. Also I have heard that people did put weight on the passenger seat secured by seatbelt or other means of course ( I would personally not do that).
I am an instructor myself and I ran a few times with very light students into the same problem that you have.
You can certainly fill the underseat storage on both sides to capacity if you want, that will certainly help. Also I have heard that people did put weight on the passenger seat secured by seatbelt or other means of course ( I would personally not do that).
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The school i learned at had specially designed sand bags with webbing straps on them to accept the seat belt. These were secured to the empty left hand seat where there was no risk of them affecting the controls.
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By adding more weight under you or the left seat this will move the GC forward, the helicopter will sit less tail low, more level. i.e romoving the the "cylic almost at arms length." problem.
By going with full fuel when your solo the GC will move aft because the fuel tank or tanks are in simple terms towards the back of the aircraft. So this is not a good idea if you very light and solo and may end up putting you out of CG limits.
I would recomend adding more wight under the front seats. But you best bet is to talk through & work out and plot the different weight & balance situations with your instructor.
Good luck with the rest of you training
By going with full fuel when your solo the GC will move aft because the fuel tank or tanks are in simple terms towards the back of the aircraft. So this is not a good idea if you very light and solo and may end up putting you out of CG limits.
I would recomend adding more wight under the front seats. But you best bet is to talk through & work out and plot the different weight & balance situations with your instructor.
Good luck with the rest of you training
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I had the same problem when I was flying helicopters 15 years ago.... (not anymore however
) I had a weighted sandbag that went underseat of a robbie and sometimes I used another in the other seat for ballance.
For the Jet & Longranger I used divers weights under the seat cushion (I know, I know... dumb move looking back at it). Even with the weights the Longranger with full fuel and no pax got very close to the aft c of g and required a lot "LOT" of foward cyclic to remain neutral.
After that I dont think I have flown without another poler or pax up the front. Just remember that the seats are designed to collapse in the event of a high ROD impact so if you have to put anything under the seat.................
make sure it's blunt
) I had a weighted sandbag that went underseat of a robbie and sometimes I used another in the other seat for ballance.For the Jet & Longranger I used divers weights under the seat cushion (I know, I know... dumb move looking back at it). Even with the weights the Longranger with full fuel and no pax got very close to the aft c of g and required a lot "LOT" of foward cyclic to remain neutral.
After that I dont think I have flown without another poler or pax up the front. Just remember that the seats are designed to collapse in the event of a high ROD impact so if you have to put anything under the seat.................
make sure it's blunt
Also remember that the less weight you have up front..the less tail rotor authority you have. This is especially important at high DA's. Sand bags are best up front on the floor.
I have never had issue being out of CG, I do have to watch the fire crews though when doing shuttles and back haul...they have a tendency to throw all back-haul in the baggage compartment and nothing internal....could be embarrassing with no people in the back.
I have never had issue being out of CG, I do have to watch the fire crews though when doing shuttles and back haul...they have a tendency to throw all back-haul in the baggage compartment and nothing internal....could be embarrassing with no people in the back.
The Original Whirly
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By going with full fuel when your solo the GC will move aft because the fuel tank or tanks are in simple terms towards the back of the aircraft. So this is not a good idea if you very light and solo and may end up putting you out of CG limits.
However, even though I'm above the minimum weight with full fuel, I'm pretty close to it, and I find the R22 flies uncomfortably nose high when I have full fuel. So yes, it's quite OK to put stuff under either or both seats. I believe in having useful ballast, so I usually have a very full flight bag with everything I could conceivably need, plus spare oil. But anything will do really. And if you're going to pick someone up later, take a large plastic container of water; then you can empty the water when you pick up the passenger.
We lightweight pilots who've been doing this for a while have got it all worked out.
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And if you're going to pick someone up later, take a large plastic container of water; then you can empty the water when you pick up the passenger.
Just a shame a 'semi experienced' pilot from 'down south' didnt think about c of g and w&b in the jet ranger she used to fly, until I pointed it out about minimum pilot weight. Live and learn.
Great idea about the water, Whirlybird.
I once saw a small woman start up and reposition an R22 and on lift, the stinger brushed the ground. We all ducked for that one.
Great idea about the water, Whirlybird.
I once saw a small woman start up and reposition an R22 and on lift, the stinger brushed the ground. We all ducked for that one.
Not 22 current so maybe I should get back in my box, but its been a long day.
Whilst a solution needs to be found for the 'get some weight up front problem' some of the the things that people put under the seats to make the CG come into limits are not exactly frangible, and whilst there is no stipulation on this in the flight manual, I seem to recall the Robinson safety course discourages things that would hurt if they hit your a*se in a hurry from being stored under the seats. It prevents them from collapsing in the event of an accident. (Never done the course, so this is hearsay).
I used to get students to take big plastic bottles of water with them, which would probably meet both criteria.
GS
Whilst a solution needs to be found for the 'get some weight up front problem' some of the the things that people put under the seats to make the CG come into limits are not exactly frangible, and whilst there is no stipulation on this in the flight manual, I seem to recall the Robinson safety course discourages things that would hurt if they hit your a*se in a hurry from being stored under the seats. It prevents them from collapsing in the event of an accident. (Never done the course, so this is hearsay).
I used to get students to take big plastic bottles of water with them, which would probably meet both criteria.
GS
Robinson used to supply a foam cushion to put behind your back in pre-adjustable pedal machines. Try using one of these or a similar cushion behind your back as it will move your weight forward (therefore having a larger moment to act on) as well as position you closer to the cyclic. Before start-up make sure you check that you can still get full aft cyclic without interference with the belly (or any other protrusions you may have)!!
I would put plastic containers of water under your seats, but remember you have a limit of 50lbs per seat. Also don't put full fuel in the machine, whirly is quite right in stating the main tank only will help. I WOULD NOT put anything on the floor as it could slide around and the weight is meant to be taken on the seats. You could easily end up out of CG if it slipped to far forward.
With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!
I
With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!
I
I would put plastic containers of water under your seats, but remember you have a limit of 50lbs per seat. Also don't put full fuel in the machine, whirly is quite right in stating the main tank only will help. I WOULD NOT put anything on the floor as it could slide around and the weight is meant to be taken on the seats. You could easily end up out of CG if it slipped to far forward
.
With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!
I fly a 44 and I'm no lightweight and I can tell you flying solo when you are low on fuel makes for a very twitchy helicopter. Have fun and safe flying.
.With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!
I fly a 44 and I'm no lightweight and I can tell you flying solo when you are low on fuel makes for a very twitchy helicopter. Have fun and safe flying.
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... but lets not forget the good bits about R22 Beta II solo for light pilots, which is my normal mode of flight at about 5lb over the authorised minimum, and you quickly get used to having the cyclic forward.
Stunning rates of climb and (for me anyway!) 90kts straight and level at 19" on a cool day, all the crap that will end up in your bum in an accident can go in the other seat, greater range, and going into confined areas you can have over 7" MAP to spare. Max power take-offs: no problem!
Just take your time, you'll soon learn to love being light and solo.
The only problem is that when you take passengers they all feel like fat b*stards and your lovely 22 feels like a slug!
BW
Stunning rates of climb and (for me anyway!) 90kts straight and level at 19" on a cool day, all the crap that will end up in your bum in an accident can go in the other seat, greater range, and going into confined areas you can have over 7" MAP to spare. Max power take-offs: no problem!
Just take your time, you'll soon learn to love being light and solo.
The only problem is that when you take passengers they all feel like fat b*stards and your lovely 22 feels like a slug!
BW
Water balloons! They'd squish in an accident and also help put out a fire!!
There is an R44 flying around near me with pop out floats. Unfortunately, the gas bottle is under the left hand seat, and as an instructor, I was never happy about flying it. Imagine getting that up ya butt!!
There is an R44 flying around near me with pop out floats. Unfortunately, the gas bottle is under the left hand seat, and as an instructor, I was never happy about flying it. Imagine getting that up ya butt!!