Underweight for R22
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Thanks to all for the replies, didn't think I'd get so many!
Bladewashout, sounds great when you put it like that, but must admit I do struggle with my weight, (and only being 5'3" tall).
Whirlybird, love the idea of the water container, I'm going to give that one a try, one under each seat.
I fully take on board that the fuel is aft of the C&G, and that the more of it (uncountered by weight in the front), the more the machine will fly nose up. However, what bvgs said about the R44 being 'twitchy' with not much fuel, so is the R22. This is a sort of 'catch 22' situation for me. If I have too much it's nose high, if I take less, the heli is definately more lively.
I guess I'll have to learn to live with it, (being the type of person who is naturally skinny, and can't put weight on anyway)
Thanks for all your inputs.
Bladewashout, sounds great when you put it like that, but must admit I do struggle with my weight, (and only being 5'3" tall).
Whirlybird, love the idea of the water container, I'm going to give that one a try, one under each seat.
I fully take on board that the fuel is aft of the C&G, and that the more of it (uncountered by weight in the front), the more the machine will fly nose up. However, what bvgs said about the R44 being 'twitchy' with not much fuel, so is the R22. This is a sort of 'catch 22' situation for me. If I have too much it's nose high, if I take less, the heli is definately more lively.
I guess I'll have to learn to live with it, (being the type of person who is naturally skinny, and can't put weight on anyway)
Thanks for all your inputs.
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G_STRNG; been there, done that, still suffering!
I'm also what is termed 'underweight' for the R22, (and like yourself, not very tall) - every time I fly it, I take a specially constructed bag of weights with me. (Although will be having second thoughts after having the collapsable seat scenario re-iterated in this thread - weights and bum...ugh).
When I started, I use to use a cushion, (as mentioned in this thread), but couldn't get on with that at all - the rear cyclic movements didn't feel right, and I felt as if I had less control.
Besides, it was getting silly; everytime I wanted to fly solo, it felt like I was taking half the contents of either the car or the office with me! Once, I had to run back to the airport because I'd forgotten to remove the weights, and the next person to fly was a rather large guy...
Whirly - love the idea of the water containers, how come you've never mentioned that one to me before? (Then again, can't remember if I've told you of my underweight problems flying the R22).
G_STRING, it does get better as you get more practice, but keep it up. As mentioned on another thread, helicopter flying is a perishable skill, which will quickly deteriorate if you don't use it. I found this out after finally getting back solo in the R22 a few days ago, and being surprised by how I 'jumped' into the air, (even though I was expecting it).
Did settle down and enjoyed it though.
Have fun
ariel
I'm also what is termed 'underweight' for the R22, (and like yourself, not very tall) - every time I fly it, I take a specially constructed bag of weights with me. (Although will be having second thoughts after having the collapsable seat scenario re-iterated in this thread - weights and bum...ugh).
When I started, I use to use a cushion, (as mentioned in this thread), but couldn't get on with that at all - the rear cyclic movements didn't feel right, and I felt as if I had less control.
Besides, it was getting silly; everytime I wanted to fly solo, it felt like I was taking half the contents of either the car or the office with me! Once, I had to run back to the airport because I'd forgotten to remove the weights, and the next person to fly was a rather large guy...
Whirly - love the idea of the water containers, how come you've never mentioned that one to me before? (Then again, can't remember if I've told you of my underweight problems flying the R22).
G_STRING, it does get better as you get more practice, but keep it up. As mentioned on another thread, helicopter flying is a perishable skill, which will quickly deteriorate if you don't use it. I found this out after finally getting back solo in the R22 a few days ago, and being surprised by how I 'jumped' into the air, (even though I was expecting it).
Did settle down and enjoyed it though.
Have fun
ariel
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Let there be water!
Of course there is another aspect and this with the weight all the other way.
I was asked to fly with a giant geologist with his giant old fashioned camcorder when I had only landed to refuel anyway.
So: Fat bastard plus fat toy, minimum fuel. Result: stick coming back back back as the collective came up.
There came a moment when I had to say "Sorry, I need some fuel, to balance us up."
Geos are men of science, they understand. Plus he already knew that he was a fat bastard. No science needed.
Aren't you glad you fly a helicopter? We can make a life or death decision at zero airspeed. Aeroplane foxe only get the bad news at the boundary fence.
Plenty of other helis have this problem too: H300s, JetRangers come to mind.
But I like the water ballast idea, when the Cof G is too far aft. Australia is a dry country. Just be sure that you carry in plastic (frangible) containers.
thekite
I was asked to fly with a giant geologist with his giant old fashioned camcorder when I had only landed to refuel anyway.
So: Fat bastard plus fat toy, minimum fuel. Result: stick coming back back back as the collective came up.
There came a moment when I had to say "Sorry, I need some fuel, to balance us up."
Geos are men of science, they understand. Plus he already knew that he was a fat bastard. No science needed.
Aren't you glad you fly a helicopter? We can make a life or death decision at zero airspeed. Aeroplane foxe only get the bad news at the boundary fence.
Plenty of other helis have this problem too: H300s, JetRangers come to mind.
But I like the water ballast idea, when the Cof G is too far aft. Australia is a dry country. Just be sure that you carry in plastic (frangible) containers.
thekite
plastic
The Containers want to be soft, as they need to break on impact as water does not give, and even though the posterior will not get the sharp object, the water has to get away or the compressibility will be badly compromised.
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Hi all,
just for reference, have some 5K+ hrs onthe R-44 and 700+ on the R-22 (about 10K total...)
It will depend on where you fly. Some countries will allow you to fly with jerry-cans, other not.
Where I am a lot of students ( and myself too) used the needed extra balance to extend the range.
If on a solo, a good (speak fume-tight) 5-gal jerry can would extend the range quite a bit. On the return a water fill did the trick.
2 2.5 gal also do it.
The trick is not to put the liquid container (whatever you carry) under the seat, but in the food well in front of the left seat.
Do your w+b and you see, there is no chance to run out of cg with 5 gal of water there (assuming you really need the extra weight...).
(There is no issue with w+b in either Robinson as long as you stay within max seat weight limits. I frequently get asked about max-seat weight, rest fuel - situation. Supposedly the cg goes out of limits when the fuel gets used up.
The mistake comes when people do not re-calculate the new total weight after flying of the fuel weight.
Turn it as you want, no out of CG for either R, if you stick to the max seat weights and total weights...)
I am about 165 lb and still use the jerry can in the food well, because you immediately get a perfectly level helo to play with.
If I am solo in a R-44 I do the same, just to get more level into the game.
If you cannot use fuel: There are collapsable 5 gal-watercontainers.
Pick-up your pax, take a sip and poor out the rest, collapse, store, done.
Again, if you are in Europe, stay away from the fuel in the can.
You are in a airport starved country, most likely you get away with some fuel in there, just don't ask to have it filled at the fuel truck....
(..and DON'T use the collapsable thing for anything but water!)
A short strong strap will secure the can to the seatbelt. Generally it will not move at all anyway...
3top
"wild thing"
just for reference, have some 5K+ hrs onthe R-44 and 700+ on the R-22 (about 10K total...)
It will depend on where you fly. Some countries will allow you to fly with jerry-cans, other not.
Where I am a lot of students ( and myself too) used the needed extra balance to extend the range.
If on a solo, a good (speak fume-tight) 5-gal jerry can would extend the range quite a bit. On the return a water fill did the trick.
2 2.5 gal also do it.
The trick is not to put the liquid container (whatever you carry) under the seat, but in the food well in front of the left seat.
Do your w+b and you see, there is no chance to run out of cg with 5 gal of water there (assuming you really need the extra weight...).
(There is no issue with w+b in either Robinson as long as you stay within max seat weight limits. I frequently get asked about max-seat weight, rest fuel - situation. Supposedly the cg goes out of limits when the fuel gets used up.
The mistake comes when people do not re-calculate the new total weight after flying of the fuel weight.
Turn it as you want, no out of CG for either R, if you stick to the max seat weights and total weights...)
I am about 165 lb and still use the jerry can in the food well, because you immediately get a perfectly level helo to play with.
If I am solo in a R-44 I do the same, just to get more level into the game.
If you cannot use fuel: There are collapsable 5 gal-watercontainers.
Pick-up your pax, take a sip and poor out the rest, collapse, store, done.
Again, if you are in Europe, stay away from the fuel in the can.
You are in a airport starved country, most likely you get away with some fuel in there, just don't ask to have it filled at the fuel truck....
(..and DON'T use the collapsable thing for anything but water!)
A short strong strap will secure the can to the seatbelt. Generally it will not move at all anyway...
3top
"wild thing"
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Beg to differ there 3Top. The 44 (well the clipper II is my experience) is easy to get out of CG limits with pilot and 3 pax. If the heavies are in the front, then you exceed forward CG limits when close to MAUW.
Creates a nasty catch 22 situation if you've been over polite or less than thorough on the full and free check. Nose low and restricted rearward cyclic.
Easy to solve by putting the lightest pax in the front, but you need to be aware (ie. have a simple spreadsheet model) to do that.
Creates a nasty catch 22 situation if you've been over polite or less than thorough on the full and free check. Nose low and restricted rearward cyclic.
Easy to solve by putting the lightest pax in the front, but you need to be aware (ie. have a simple spreadsheet model) to do that.
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Puntosaurus,
I hardly belief this.
However, it is not called an EXACT W&B if you have to work with optimistic weight estimates.
Never had a problem with this early in my R-44 days, but last year I had to put people on the scale occasionally and show them, that even before breakfast and buttn***d they never make their dreamed up weight.
At one point I started to believe that I was loosing power (like in "getting worn out"). So we loaded the R-44 with 5-gal jerry cans filled with water to a little over max GW(about 10 gallons or 80 lbs over). Performed flawlessly and right on spec. in a high hover and held power for as long as you wished - SL, 32ºC.
SO watch it really carefully with the "wish for" versus true numbers...
3top
PS: If the helo is rigged and balanced according to the manual it should be impossible to get it out of CG, when observing limits.
I hardly belief this.
However, it is not called an EXACT W&B if you have to work with optimistic weight estimates.
Never had a problem with this early in my R-44 days, but last year I had to put people on the scale occasionally and show them, that even before breakfast and buttn***d they never make their dreamed up weight.
At one point I started to believe that I was loosing power (like in "getting worn out"). So we loaded the R-44 with 5-gal jerry cans filled with water to a little over max GW(about 10 gallons or 80 lbs over). Performed flawlessly and right on spec. in a high hover and held power for as long as you wished - SL, 32ºC.
SO watch it really carefully with the "wish for" versus true numbers...
3top
PS: If the helo is rigged and balanced according to the manual it should be impossible to get it out of CG, when observing limits.
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Didn't fly it - just hovered 
Was a calculation mistake by the student I trusted with it.
The required powersetting was a little on the high side, so just for kicks I re-did the calcs, well - it was already done....
Would you guess what the mistake was?
3top
PS: I was lucky that there weren't just any more jerry cans or it would have been 20 gal over....
Never trust other peoples calcs....
Was a calculation mistake by the student I trusted with it.
The required powersetting was a little on the high side, so just for kicks I re-did the calcs, well - it was already done....
Would you guess what the mistake was?
3top
PS: I was lucky that there weren't just any more jerry cans or it would have been 20 gal over....
Never trust other peoples calcs....
Last edited by 3top; 9th Oct 2007 at 20:52.
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Alright,
that's what you do a W&B for.
What I wanted to express ( and obviously missed to do) is, once you have it in W&B limits, flying off fuel will not get you out of limits...
3top
PS: Am away from any POH, but I will have a hack at it next time I get one in my hands. Did these exercises a lot with students....
that's what you do a W&B for.
What I wanted to express ( and obviously missed to do) is, once you have it in W&B limits, flying off fuel will not get you out of limits...
3top
PS: Am away from any POH, but I will have a hack at it next time I get one in my hands. Did these exercises a lot with students....
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Hey, you might not believe it, but ...not just in the US!
But mainly US-visitors
I flew them all from the first Astro's to the latest Clipper II's.
If you have that problem regularly, you might want to check on the weight & balance of the aircraft.
Anyone changed the battery location lately?
On the other hand, ..you're 280 lbs?
3top
But mainly US-visitors
I flew them all from the first Astro's to the latest Clipper II's.
If you have that problem regularly, you might want to check on the weight & balance of the aircraft.
Anyone changed the battery location lately?
On the other hand, ..you're 280 lbs?
3top
