R44 Purchase
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
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There seems to be a huge variation across the country on R44 rates, whereas for the R22 the differences are much less. When I was looking everywhere for good R22 SFH rates I could not find much difference, and I also tried for ages for a share without success. I did manage to get a block rate for the whole of one winter by paying up front for a school's "spare" one, but the result was that I got so used to having it around that I wound up buying my own.
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
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So it's flying about 300hrs/ year. It's a std machine with little in the way of avionics.
It's earning profit after costs of between £50 and £63 per flying hour for SFH after accounting for the insurance loading for SFH and training (which is quite high). BUT not taking into account any risk based costs for damage/ fried engine/ etc
At 300/ yr it would have a TBO of ~7 years so quite good utilisation. The owners are to be congratulated on establishing a viable business rather than a charity.
£380 - £410 (all up incl VAT/ 1 landing/ fuel/ insurance/ circuits at base) is a reasonable commercial cost to deliver not excessive profits on that type of airframe.
I heard a view from an FI I have known for some time a couple of years ago that the SFH market could disappear by the time we host the London olympics due principally to insurance costs. Most R44's now reside in people's gardens and fields leaving few airframes for SFH hence D > S price goes up. The cost of insurance is sucked down where it is flown only by limited higher hours pilots and you need to sell a lot of hours to make any profit.
h-r
Added later - local 100LL prices will also affect rates. Some locations charge a lot so this is passed on in pricing - some schools control their own supply from the wholesaler so have more price control.
It's earning profit after costs of between £50 and £63 per flying hour for SFH after accounting for the insurance loading for SFH and training (which is quite high). BUT not taking into account any risk based costs for damage/ fried engine/ etc
At 300/ yr it would have a TBO of ~7 years so quite good utilisation. The owners are to be congratulated on establishing a viable business rather than a charity.
£380 - £410 (all up incl VAT/ 1 landing/ fuel/ insurance/ circuits at base) is a reasonable commercial cost to deliver not excessive profits on that type of airframe.
I heard a view from an FI I have known for some time a couple of years ago that the SFH market could disappear by the time we host the London olympics due principally to insurance costs. Most R44's now reside in people's gardens and fields leaving few airframes for SFH hence D > S price goes up. The cost of insurance is sucked down where it is flown only by limited higher hours pilots and you need to sell a lot of hours to make any profit.
h-r
Added later - local 100LL prices will also affect rates. Some locations charge a lot so this is passed on in pricing - some schools control their own supply from the wholesaler so have more price control.
Last edited by helicopter-redeye; 6th Sep 2007 at 07:39. Reason: Adding further data
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Redeye, thats fantastic friend, thank you
I was doing some digging in the interim between posts, and called a friend or two who also fly that machine - 300 hours P.A. is turning into a rather conservative estimate.
Your right, for all I think the school owners are nice chaps, as businessmen, applause indeed.
With the ease and affordability of aviation finance now, I can see why so many folk go for the purchase option. Sad if the S.F.H. option starts to dissapear though.
I was doing some digging in the interim between posts, and called a friend or two who also fly that machine - 300 hours P.A. is turning into a rather conservative estimate.Your right, for all I think the school owners are nice chaps, as businessmen, applause indeed.
With the ease and affordability of aviation finance now, I can see why so many folk go for the purchase option. Sad if the S.F.H. option starts to dissapear though.
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Very few PPL holders actually SFH anyway. Most get their licence, stick it in a drawer and never fly again. As a PPL holder, even if you just do enough flying to stay 'current' for SFH - ie 1 hr per month. That's a £300 a month 'hobby', and all you do is go round the local area. The only way to get anything out of flying is to do is as a career, or be rich enough to buy your own heli, or rich enough to spend a wad each year on worthwhile SFH trips. It all comes down to cost, and helicopter flying is damn expensive in the UK. It's a rich man's plaything, like boats and horses.
If you want to persist with your car hire analogy, then I bring to you attention 'loyalty cards'. Rent lots of cars and you get either better prices (for being a loyal customer) or other incentives.
And are you sure that we are 'mates'?
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No problem Bravo, I shall refrain from using any pleasantries towards you from now on if you so prefer. As for the subject, shall we shall just agree to differ?
Thanks again to Redeye and others for the constructive input, and apologies to the O.P. for the thread creep.
Thanks again to Redeye and others for the constructive input, and apologies to the O.P. for the thread creep.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I'm paying £347 inc VAT, but you pay based on a calculated engine time, which seems to involve adding 0.1 to the Datcon for each flight. Makes it like an R22 whiere the Datcon runs on the engine time rather than collective.
If you have short flights, that makes it a bit more expensive (you pay 0.6 hrs for 0.5 hrs in the air), but for a 1 hour flight in the air, you'd be paying £382.
BW
If you have short flights, that makes it a bit more expensive (you pay 0.6 hrs for 0.5 hrs in the air), but for a 1 hour flight in the air, you'd be paying £382.
BW
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Hiring out a privately owned machine
I bought my Raven 2 new in late 05 and it now has 300hrs on it. I wouldnt dream of hiring it out. As we all know, it is possible to cause a load of damage by overspeeding etc. If you do it yourself you know all about it. If somebody else does it, they ain't likely to tell you - you'll just wonder why they dont hire it any more.....
Take into account the extra insurance, inevitable maintenance increase and those annoying scratches and dings that were 'all there when I took it over' - add to it the premium price that I can expect for a pristine, cossetted, hangared 100% privately operated machine when I trade it for a new one in 2 years time and I just dont think it would be worth it.
The majority of private owners tend to share this view I guess. My machine was bought with hard earned money. Unlike a 'kick the tyres, light the fires, bang it on, dont tell anyone and forget the bugs coz they were on it before, clean the screen with an old gritty rag flying school fixed wing knacker' - an unreported event in the heli can either kill you or manifest itself down the road in the form of MR bearings, an engine that suddenly seems down on power and burning more oil etc etc.
The peace of mind when you open your own hangar door and know that you flew it last - incalculable.
Just off to get it out now.
Catcha
HP
Take into account the extra insurance, inevitable maintenance increase and those annoying scratches and dings that were 'all there when I took it over' - add to it the premium price that I can expect for a pristine, cossetted, hangared 100% privately operated machine when I trade it for a new one in 2 years time and I just dont think it would be worth it.
The majority of private owners tend to share this view I guess. My machine was bought with hard earned money. Unlike a 'kick the tyres, light the fires, bang it on, dont tell anyone and forget the bugs coz they were on it before, clean the screen with an old gritty rag flying school fixed wing knacker' - an unreported event in the heli can either kill you or manifest itself down the road in the form of MR bearings, an engine that suddenly seems down on power and burning more oil etc etc.
The peace of mind when you open your own hangar door and know that you flew it last - incalculable.
Just off to get it out now.
Catcha
HP
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Hairyplane
Good point, I owned a 44 and did leaseback threw my local school. Suffered one over speed £17K, before they eventually crashed it. Flying schools don't care if the pilot they hire to has 6hrs on type like the guy who crashed mine, they just want the profit from that .5 hire!
The main reason most of us do leaseback is to try and bring down the hourly rate it costs to operate the machine. If I buy another 44 I’ll keep it for private use or just a select few pilots I trust.
Good point, I owned a 44 and did leaseback threw my local school. Suffered one over speed £17K, before they eventually crashed it. Flying schools don't care if the pilot they hire to has 6hrs on type like the guy who crashed mine, they just want the profit from that .5 hire!
The main reason most of us do leaseback is to try and bring down the hourly rate it costs to operate the machine. If I buy another 44 I’ll keep it for private use or just a select few pilots I trust.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maders UK
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"The peace of mind when you open your own hangar door and know that you flew it last - incalculable."
So true, Hairy. Why do you plan to change it at four years old?
SB
So true, Hairy. Why do you plan to change it at four years old?
SB
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Replace at 4 yrs?
A good question.
With linear depreciation (ish?) I dont believe I will lose too much money in changing at 4 yrs/ 800 hours.
Balancing this with the likelihood IMO that it is unlikely to all go the 2400 hrs without major expense I do believe its a good idea.
Who knows, but what price peace of mind?! These things are constantly being improved.
Anyway, like a new car, its a feelgood thing. No pockets in a shroud. The last one was blue - I'll have a red'un etc.
Catcha
HP
With linear depreciation (ish?) I dont believe I will lose too much money in changing at 4 yrs/ 800 hours.
Balancing this with the likelihood IMO that it is unlikely to all go the 2400 hrs without major expense I do believe its a good idea.
Who knows, but what price peace of mind?! These things are constantly being improved.
Anyway, like a new car, its a feelgood thing. No pockets in a shroud. The last one was blue - I'll have a red'un etc.
Catcha
HP
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Hairy,
My Clipper II is 3.5 years old and has 469.2 hrs.
I think I'll hang on to it at least 3-4 more years before changing it - everything works well and it seems a good 'un etc...
I say this having just had 2 months of downtime because of an engine problem in my equally well pampered Mooney which is newer and thankfully covered under warranty.
Knowing my luck when I decide to change machine we will be at $1=£1!!
I would change the clipper at 4-5 years but I have other commercial projects on the go at present (ones which will make me money rather than costing money as well as improving my quality of life) which require reinvestment of most of my current income. Anyway I have spent enough on aircraft for this decade.
All the best,
SB
My Clipper II is 3.5 years old and has 469.2 hrs.
I think I'll hang on to it at least 3-4 more years before changing it - everything works well and it seems a good 'un etc...
I say this having just had 2 months of downtime because of an engine problem in my equally well pampered Mooney which is newer and thankfully covered under warranty.
Knowing my luck when I decide to change machine we will be at $1=£1!!
I would change the clipper at 4-5 years but I have other commercial projects on the go at present (ones which will make me money rather than costing money as well as improving my quality of life) which require reinvestment of most of my current income. Anyway I have spent enough on aircraft for this decade.
All the best,
SB
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Hi, I'm in your home region and am just going through my PPL etc (probably dealing with one of the same 3 outfits you refer to). I'm also working out the best way to continue this 'hobby' once qualified etc.
Would be great if you could PM me, I'm interested in how you get on and or maybe setting up a share group to split costs etc.
Would be great if you could PM me, I'm interested in how you get on and or maybe setting up a share group to split costs etc.
