Heli down in Cumbria.
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Nigel,
Options 1 and 2 exist already. And a third option also already exists - 'cancel the trip'
If people are happy to push those existing options too far (sometimes without event other times tragically) I for one would be unhappy flying IMC amongst singles lacking the same levels of equipment. (TCAS, Wx radar, SAS etc etc etc)
I've seen singles flying VMC on top for protracted distances and know of those that will fly IMC through cloud, many of whom have never held an IR. Your Option 3 won't help those individuals gain any more common sense or respect for aviation. In fact it will probably convince them they are even 'greater' pilots.
Options 1 and 2 exist already. And a third option also already exists - 'cancel the trip'
If people are happy to push those existing options too far (sometimes without event other times tragically) I for one would be unhappy flying IMC amongst singles lacking the same levels of equipment. (TCAS, Wx radar, SAS etc etc etc)
I've seen singles flying VMC on top for protracted distances and know of those that will fly IMC through cloud, many of whom have never held an IR. Your Option 3 won't help those individuals gain any more common sense or respect for aviation. In fact it will probably convince them they are even 'greater' pilots.
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It's unlikely that we will see single engine IFR in the UK in the near future. I stand to be corrected, but I am only aware of one helicopter (the Bristow Jetranger) that is cleared for this, which I believe can only be operated IFR when conditions are such that in the event of an engine failure, wx conditions are such that a visual recovery is possible.
But even if we do allow single engine IFR, this will not prevent CFIT accidents. The problem is cost. Obtaining an IR is expensive, prohibitively so for most pilots, and to be confident you need to remain current. The equipment requirement is also going to prevent the use of most small piston helicopters. It isn't simply a case of a few hours instrument appreciation and a change to the rules, as it would be foolhardy in the extreme to start a trip VFR and then change to IFR as and when conditions demand. How many pilots flying VFR are aware of their MOCA/MORA should they wish to climb? And knowing that the cloud base is 1000' at your destination does not necessarily allow you to remain above MSA until visual.
You will not find me going IMC in a Robinsin R44, legal or not; and I have a current IR. Forget having only one engine, that's the least thing to worry about.
But even if we do allow single engine IFR, this will not prevent CFIT accidents. The problem is cost. Obtaining an IR is expensive, prohibitively so for most pilots, and to be confident you need to remain current. The equipment requirement is also going to prevent the use of most small piston helicopters. It isn't simply a case of a few hours instrument appreciation and a change to the rules, as it would be foolhardy in the extreme to start a trip VFR and then change to IFR as and when conditions demand. How many pilots flying VFR are aware of their MOCA/MORA should they wish to climb? And knowing that the cloud base is 1000' at your destination does not necessarily allow you to remain above MSA until visual.
You will not find me going IMC in a Robinsin R44, legal or not; and I have a current IR. Forget having only one engine, that's the least thing to worry about.
All perfectly reasonable answers....however i guess tcas could be made affordable in the near future and i hear there is already a very cheap latest tech autopilot already tries and tested ....but not certified due to cost.
Lastly, can you not fly ifr outside controlled airspace in an N reg on a faa ir?
Maybe there is no answer to this problem , that is why it has been the No1 killer for so many years. Maybe you could have a system where you are allowed to fly only up to say 20 -30 miles in cloud and then only with some sort of permission ? I guess it will stay as it is ...those that have the equipment and ability pop up and do it quietly and the rest take their chances or land. But you must admit it IS frustrating when you come across a line of low cloud , you KNOW you can fly at msa without ice problems and you KNOW the sun is shining 10 miles further on !!!!
Lastly, can you not fly ifr outside controlled airspace in an N reg on a faa ir?
Maybe there is no answer to this problem , that is why it has been the No1 killer for so many years. Maybe you could have a system where you are allowed to fly only up to say 20 -30 miles in cloud and then only with some sort of permission ? I guess it will stay as it is ...those that have the equipment and ability pop up and do it quietly and the rest take their chances or land. But you must admit it IS frustrating when you come across a line of low cloud , you KNOW you can fly at msa without ice problems and you KNOW the sun is shining 10 miles further on !!!!
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I've flown thousands of hours IFR, and have never flown an A/C with TCAS! But agreed, there are solutions that will never be used due to the certification requirements. However, I still believe that a trip conducted IFR with the option to go VFR is still safer than going VFR with an option of limited IFR. If you can fly safely for 20-30 miles IFR, then you will be safer to remain IFR than to be required to descend into the clag again.
There are many ways of making a flight a little bit safer, but none to beat a good decision as to whether to set off in the first place. I've been lucky in the past that my poor decisions haven't cost me more than a few sleepless nights.
There are many ways of making a flight a little bit safer, but none to beat a good decision as to whether to set off in the first place. I've been lucky in the past that my poor decisions haven't cost me more than a few sleepless nights.
Nigel, the only answer would be to make GA flying so overly restrictive that no one would be able to get airborne without fully briefing a supervisor or similar - a bit like the Military in many respects.
This clearly won't happen so it is up to education in flying clubs and from the CAA to ensure pilots are aware of the risks involved in flying in poor weather.
I know a lot of education goes on at the moment but the CFITs are still happening because the urge to reach the desired destination clouds (pun not intended) the judgement of many pilots and they selectively ignore the bits of the met forecast that don't suit their decisions. All the courses in the world won't stop you making a crap decision especially when you are under pressure from pax/friends to go.
Sadly the old lessons keep being relearned the hard way.
This clearly won't happen so it is up to education in flying clubs and from the CAA to ensure pilots are aware of the risks involved in flying in poor weather.
I know a lot of education goes on at the moment but the CFITs are still happening because the urge to reach the desired destination clouds (pun not intended) the judgement of many pilots and they selectively ignore the bits of the met forecast that don't suit their decisions. All the courses in the world won't stop you making a crap decision especially when you are under pressure from pax/friends to go.
Sadly the old lessons keep being relearned the hard way.
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I am the holder of a ME/IR and fly my twin C401 as much as possible on airways, often in cloud, for long periods safe in the knowledge that air traffic are responsible for separation, and that the aircraft has pitot de-icing, de-icing boots, and is compliant with the avionics necessary for the cruise and an ILS at the other end.
I also fly an R44 and it is frustrating to have to abandon trips when bad weather is ahead. I flew last Saturday from north of Welshpool to an intended landing at eskdale in the lakes, the morning after this incident. I abandoned the flight at Blackpool, quite rightly, because the weather ahead was completely unacceptable- very por vis( 2000 meters) and cloud down to 200 ft. This was not unexpected as the weather in that area had been poor all morning and it was there quite clearly on the metars and Tafs.
I would not relish punching up into cloud, as I would in the 401, because besides the R44 not being authorised for IFR, it can be extremely uncomfortable and turbulant flying in say, cumulus cloud which are unstable with large upcurrents. Sometimes you think it is only for a short time but once in cloud you can be stuck there for long periods due to high ground and cloud can form very quickly ahead. Not a nice position to be in.
I know it is dissapointing when on a planned trip to have to abandon it but someone (you) has to be disciplined and make a positive decision.
Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.
I also fly an R44 and it is frustrating to have to abandon trips when bad weather is ahead. I flew last Saturday from north of Welshpool to an intended landing at eskdale in the lakes, the morning after this incident. I abandoned the flight at Blackpool, quite rightly, because the weather ahead was completely unacceptable- very por vis( 2000 meters) and cloud down to 200 ft. This was not unexpected as the weather in that area had been poor all morning and it was there quite clearly on the metars and Tafs.
I would not relish punching up into cloud, as I would in the 401, because besides the R44 not being authorised for IFR, it can be extremely uncomfortable and turbulant flying in say, cumulus cloud which are unstable with large upcurrents. Sometimes you think it is only for a short time but once in cloud you can be stuck there for long periods due to high ground and cloud can form very quickly ahead. Not a nice position to be in.
I know it is dissapointing when on a planned trip to have to abandon it but someone (you) has to be disciplined and make a positive decision.
Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.
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G-ROAR,
I am totally in agreement with you and congratulate your decision-making last weekend.
I fly IFR in my deiced Mooney Ovation as well as VFR in my R44. The 44 is just beyond the capabilities of most pilots in cloud - I avoid flying in cloud in the chopper at all costs but just like you would have no problem in my right fixed wing. Single-engined IMC does not bother me (in the right aircraft).
Basically the chopper is far less intrinsically stable and I have found it very hard to hold on a heading on the odd foolish occasion when I have been within cloud. Those foolish occasions just do not happen to me now - I am older and far wiser than once I was!
No autopilot = no IFR for me F/W or helo, the workload and opportunity for disorientation is just way to great.
Fly safely,
SB
I am totally in agreement with you and congratulate your decision-making last weekend.
I fly IFR in my deiced Mooney Ovation as well as VFR in my R44. The 44 is just beyond the capabilities of most pilots in cloud - I avoid flying in cloud in the chopper at all costs but just like you would have no problem in my right fixed wing. Single-engined IMC does not bother me (in the right aircraft).
Basically the chopper is far less intrinsically stable and I have found it very hard to hold on a heading on the odd foolish occasion when I have been within cloud. Those foolish occasions just do not happen to me now - I am older and far wiser than once I was!
No autopilot = no IFR for me F/W or helo, the workload and opportunity for disorientation is just way to great.
Fly safely,
SB
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Education !
This is my first entry into the foray of PPRUNE and reviewing this particular forum I feel that from the initial event the comments are moving along. I extend my sincere condolences to those family and friends who suffer through this tragic loss.
To my point - As a 44 pilot and a mature recent graduate of the "Holy of Holys'" RISK MANAGEMENT Iwould offer aftermentioned for consideration.
The United Kingdom IMHO is NOT and never will be a country with such a climate that the flying a rotory can be exercised wherever and whenever one wishes. True there is a need to experience during training the actions to be taken should adverse weather be encountered on a journey but is there enough emphasis placed on the importance of understanding the changable weather conditions throughout this country?
With increased flying time experience is gained and complacency grows. This is an observation on my part and every time I do an A I have to remind myself to complete the check to limit the risk.
I love to fly helicopters but with all my heart I believe that in the UK flying Heelios is a wonderful event that has to be experienced only on days that declare all the 9's from A to B and back! I refer my comments to the 44 and 22'ss as I dont have knowledge of the available technology fitted to other machines.
Cliches in this instance abound - but if I may submit just one that I believe may have saved me on one occasion it would be :
" The least experienced press on, while the more experienced turn back to meet the most experienced that didn't take off in the first place".
To my point - As a 44 pilot and a mature recent graduate of the "Holy of Holys'" RISK MANAGEMENT Iwould offer aftermentioned for consideration.
The United Kingdom IMHO is NOT and never will be a country with such a climate that the flying a rotory can be exercised wherever and whenever one wishes. True there is a need to experience during training the actions to be taken should adverse weather be encountered on a journey but is there enough emphasis placed on the importance of understanding the changable weather conditions throughout this country?
With increased flying time experience is gained and complacency grows. This is an observation on my part and every time I do an A I have to remind myself to complete the check to limit the risk.
I love to fly helicopters but with all my heart I believe that in the UK flying Heelios is a wonderful event that has to be experienced only on days that declare all the 9's from A to B and back! I refer my comments to the 44 and 22'ss as I dont have knowledge of the available technology fitted to other machines.
Cliches in this instance abound - but if I may submit just one that I believe may have saved me on one occasion it would be :
" The least experienced press on, while the more experienced turn back to meet the most experienced that didn't take off in the first place".
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IFR in a squirrel
Disregarding the requirement to have two engines, the differences between an IFR machine and a VFR machine -which could also be a twin squirrel - are vast. Actually, the days when you can go IFR overland in the UK are limited due to icing and performance, not to mention diversion fuel requirements etc. I would have no problem going IFR/IMC in an IFR squirrel, but flights would still be subject to strict weather criteria. When the weather is marginal, you often find that the only helicopters flying are the VFR ones!
Are there any helicopters in the UK with a full icing clearance? I don't know of any.
I think that the problem stems from the way helicopter flying is sold. There are countless magazine and newspaper articles informing people that using a helicopter is three times faster than driving, will cost less than a car per mile, and can land and take off anywhere. The reality is somewhat different, but the flying school won't tell you that. By the time the newly qualified pilot finds this out, they've commited themselves to a great deal of expense.
Are there any helicopters in the UK with a full icing clearance? I don't know of any.
I think that the problem stems from the way helicopter flying is sold. There are countless magazine and newspaper articles informing people that using a helicopter is three times faster than driving, will cost less than a car per mile, and can land and take off anywhere. The reality is somewhat different, but the flying school won't tell you that. By the time the newly qualified pilot finds this out, they've commited themselves to a great deal of expense.
but how did the military fair flying ifr in their gazelles over the years ??
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manfromuncle;
I wish that they would stop any form of bad weather training in the PPL/H syllabus. The current teaching of a 180 degree turn is a recipe for an unbalanced, tightening turn with poor height control. Anything which leads an inexperienced pilot to think he can fly himself out of trouble is to my mind a bad thing. far better to stand on the apron, point up and say "Don't go into the white fluffy things without all the kit, a huge amount of extra training and a lot of experience." I've scared myself more times than I care to think of in grot weather. I've got an IR and nearly 10,000 rotary hours and still manage to scare myself usually in very marginal conditions when the aircraft hasn't got all the kit in the cockpit.
VH
I wish that they would stop any form of bad weather training in the PPL/H syllabus. The current teaching of a 180 degree turn is a recipe for an unbalanced, tightening turn with poor height control. Anything which leads an inexperienced pilot to think he can fly himself out of trouble is to my mind a bad thing. far better to stand on the apron, point up and say "Don't go into the white fluffy things without all the kit, a huge amount of extra training and a lot of experience." I've scared myself more times than I care to think of in grot weather. I've got an IR and nearly 10,000 rotary hours and still manage to scare myself usually in very marginal conditions when the aircraft hasn't got all the kit in the cockpit.
VH
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There is a whole pile of wisdom contained in these past few posts, very interesting responses and I'm pleased to see that there seems to be a concensus to keep things as they are.
Nigel, the military IFR capability in the Gazelle/Scout was/is just that - a capability. It was not something used in anger on a daily basis but the pilots were well trained and always current, therefore, if IFR was required and the weather was suitable, it could be done. But be under no misapprehension, to maintain that capability takes quite a bit of effort and the whole issue of instrument flying has to be taken very seriously and closely supervised by a proven chain of command. I do not believe this is where we ought to be going with single engine helicopters in the commercial/private world.
Nigel, the military IFR capability in the Gazelle/Scout was/is just that - a capability. It was not something used in anger on a daily basis but the pilots were well trained and always current, therefore, if IFR was required and the weather was suitable, it could be done. But be under no misapprehension, to maintain that capability takes quite a bit of effort and the whole issue of instrument flying has to be taken very seriously and closely supervised by a proven chain of command. I do not believe this is where we ought to be going with single engine helicopters in the commercial/private world.
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What I mean by "poor weather training" is NOT flight into IMC then a 180 turn. I mean recognising when the weather turns crap en-route and finding an alternate, or finding a decent field to stick it in (you'd be surprised the number of students who pick terrible landing spots when simulating chip lights etc), or avoiding high ground, talking to whoever to get some help - that kind of thing.
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Nigelh,
I agree that more accessible and complete IMC training would be appropriate, but you would only stop CFIT accidents in poor weather if was a compulsory part of the PPL. Even then I doubt the average ppl could or would even want to keep their IMC skills current. The same would apply to a low time CPL trying to break into the industry.
I can see where you are coming from with the getting through a band of weather scenario. I'm sure it could work in low land England where there are plenty of sources for accurate weather. But in upland England, Wales and Scotland, those sources are few and far between. Additionally weather tends to be more localised, so if you used the IMC option, you might have a lower chance of getting into your private site than you perhaps would have done staying VFR.
The IMC below MSA point I was trying to make earlier relates to trying to get up a valley where the bottom is clear of cloud and the ridge clamped. Hence MSA being a 1000' or more above you. Going IMC is clearly not an option, which is the point I was trying make.
I agree that more accessible and complete IMC training would be appropriate, but you would only stop CFIT accidents in poor weather if was a compulsory part of the PPL. Even then I doubt the average ppl could or would even want to keep their IMC skills current. The same would apply to a low time CPL trying to break into the industry.
I can see where you are coming from with the getting through a band of weather scenario. I'm sure it could work in low land England where there are plenty of sources for accurate weather. But in upland England, Wales and Scotland, those sources are few and far between. Additionally weather tends to be more localised, so if you used the IMC option, you might have a lower chance of getting into your private site than you perhaps would have done staying VFR.
The IMC below MSA point I was trying to make earlier relates to trying to get up a valley where the bottom is clear of cloud and the ridge clamped. Hence MSA being a 1000' or more above you. Going IMC is clearly not an option, which is the point I was trying make.
Nigel,
There is a misuse of the term CFIT in accidents which occur when the pilot is (supposed to be) flying VFR. Interestingly if you were to study the accident records you would find that most of the VFR accidents classified as CFIT are in fact loss of control.
They usually occur when a pilot continues to fly in deteriorating conditions: be it at night - when the light sources are diminishing and there is no horizon; or during the day when the visibility is decreasing. As the visual cues decrease, the pilot has to use more of his mental processes accessing visual cues and less on flying, until reaching a point where loss of control occurs. At that point, coming back into the cockpit and trying to fly out on instruments is rarely possible (even for those with instrument skills).
The answers to this are: (1) provision of helicopters with better handling qualities; and (2) persuading pilots not to exceed their personal limits.
(1) above is exactly what occurs when a helicopter is certificated under Appendix B of Part 27/29 (for fixed wing these are not even Appendices but part of normal certification). It is rare that certification can be obtained without the fitting of stability augmentation.
Punching up into IMC (can you punch up into IFR without some prior planning) is not an option that should be encouraged. There is a world of difference between operating under VFR and IFR. If a pilot has reached a point where mental processing saturation has or is about to occur, they are definitely not mentally prepared for flight on instruments or, worse still, working out how to get the helicopter back down (even if the helicopter is equipped for flight in IMC).
One of the elements that was added to the HEMS (and the PAOM) requirements in the late 90s was periodic training on instruments, and a requirement for establishing "procedures to be followed in case of inadvertent entry into cloud". This because the visibility/cloud limits for those activities are lower than for passenger transfer.
What you might regard as 'red tape' others might consider to be appropriate measures to provide a safe flying regime. If you find some time, read the qualifying Appendix and guidance in Annex 6 Part III for flying IMC in PC3 - it will give some insight into the thinking of those who had to provide guidance for legitimising the activity.
Only the larger helicopters (AS332, EC225, S92) have icing protection at this time (the S76, EC155 and AW139 are sure to follow). Where aircraft are permitted to fly with cold blades into limited icing conditions (AS332 and S61), there are a strict compliance rules; because of these rules, they are unlikely to be used for other than offshore operations.
Jim
There is a misuse of the term CFIT in accidents which occur when the pilot is (supposed to be) flying VFR. Interestingly if you were to study the accident records you would find that most of the VFR accidents classified as CFIT are in fact loss of control.
They usually occur when a pilot continues to fly in deteriorating conditions: be it at night - when the light sources are diminishing and there is no horizon; or during the day when the visibility is decreasing. As the visual cues decrease, the pilot has to use more of his mental processes accessing visual cues and less on flying, until reaching a point where loss of control occurs. At that point, coming back into the cockpit and trying to fly out on instruments is rarely possible (even for those with instrument skills).
The answers to this are: (1) provision of helicopters with better handling qualities; and (2) persuading pilots not to exceed their personal limits.
(1) above is exactly what occurs when a helicopter is certificated under Appendix B of Part 27/29 (for fixed wing these are not even Appendices but part of normal certification). It is rare that certification can be obtained without the fitting of stability augmentation.
Punching up into IMC (can you punch up into IFR without some prior planning) is not an option that should be encouraged. There is a world of difference between operating under VFR and IFR. If a pilot has reached a point where mental processing saturation has or is about to occur, they are definitely not mentally prepared for flight on instruments or, worse still, working out how to get the helicopter back down (even if the helicopter is equipped for flight in IMC).
One of the elements that was added to the HEMS (and the PAOM) requirements in the late 90s was periodic training on instruments, and a requirement for establishing "procedures to be followed in case of inadvertent entry into cloud". This because the visibility/cloud limits for those activities are lower than for passenger transfer.
What you might regard as 'red tape' others might consider to be appropriate measures to provide a safe flying regime. If you find some time, read the qualifying Appendix and guidance in Annex 6 Part III for flying IMC in PC3 - it will give some insight into the thinking of those who had to provide guidance for legitimising the activity.
Only the larger helicopters (AS332, EC225, S92) have icing protection at this time (the S76, EC155 and AW139 are sure to follow). Where aircraft are permitted to fly with cold blades into limited icing conditions (AS332 and S61), there are a strict compliance rules; because of these rules, they are unlikely to be used for other than offshore operations.
Jim
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Interesting points, JimL
"(2) persuading pilots not to exceed their personal limits"
I think, rather than an appreciation of instrument flying, emphasis should be placed on the above, although I can see the thinking behind the "instrument appreciation". The trouble is, too many think it's the same as an instrument rating.
Phil
"(2) persuading pilots not to exceed their personal limits"
I think, rather than an appreciation of instrument flying, emphasis should be placed on the above, although I can see the thinking behind the "instrument appreciation". The trouble is, too many think it's the same as an instrument rating.
Phil
I agree regarding the perceived wisdom of the 180 turn - it can lull the pilot into thinking it is a magic bullet saviour - so as long as he is prepared to do a 180 he can push on that bit further.
A few years ago some guys set off from Swansea in a light FW headed NE through the Brecons and encountered deteriorating weather en-route - they pushed a bit too far and crashed. We hover taxied up the hill in cloud, following the 121.5 beacon and eventually on the top of the hill saw 3 chaps standing by the edge of a small wood. We landed and sent the winchman to chat and it turned out to be the trio that we were looking for, all alive and unhurt but clearly a bit shaken. The pilot had gone too far up a valley, tried a 180, entered cloud and lost control (just like JimL says Un-CFIT). Fortunately he stalled the aircraft when it was only 20 or 30' above trees and it flopped in and parked itself, suspended above the ground, at a 45 degrees nose down attitude so they were all able to jump out.
VVV lucky guys who learned the hard way (almost the hardest way) about weather aborts and pushing on.
Now the difficult bit is how do you get that message across to all the rest of the pilots out there?
As Hihover said, the unstabilised Gazelle was capable of IMC flight (no navaids to do full IFR) but it took a lot of training to keep the skill levels up - no one is going to pay to do that much training just for the odd occasion when it might be needed. Concentrate the training on weather appreciation and good pre flight planning.
A few years ago some guys set off from Swansea in a light FW headed NE through the Brecons and encountered deteriorating weather en-route - they pushed a bit too far and crashed. We hover taxied up the hill in cloud, following the 121.5 beacon and eventually on the top of the hill saw 3 chaps standing by the edge of a small wood. We landed and sent the winchman to chat and it turned out to be the trio that we were looking for, all alive and unhurt but clearly a bit shaken. The pilot had gone too far up a valley, tried a 180, entered cloud and lost control (just like JimL says Un-CFIT). Fortunately he stalled the aircraft when it was only 20 or 30' above trees and it flopped in and parked itself, suspended above the ground, at a 45 degrees nose down attitude so they were all able to jump out.
VVV lucky guys who learned the hard way (almost the hardest way) about weather aborts and pushing on.
Now the difficult bit is how do you get that message across to all the rest of the pilots out there?
As Hihover said, the unstabilised Gazelle was capable of IMC flight (no navaids to do full IFR) but it took a lot of training to keep the skill levels up - no one is going to pay to do that much training just for the odd occasion when it might be needed. Concentrate the training on weather appreciation and good pre flight planning.