Best Auto Distance
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Best Auto Distance
What is the best distance say @ 80/90kt 1000 feet agl you could get out of ,R22 R44 H300 H500 Enstrom Jet Ranger Bo 105 Puma etc / eney type of helicopter, which one will buy you the most time.
Thanks Levo.
Thanks Levo.
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The R44 and the Bell 206 have a very good range due to the higher inertia blade systems that these aircraft have.
Not a twin pilot so dont know about BO105 and puma etc - (do they practice autos in those things?)
The bell 47 is very nice in auto. I know a guy that can auto to the ground, lift it into the hover and do a 360 in it before putting it on the ground again - not got the balls to try it myself yet though!!!!
Not a twin pilot so dont know about BO105 and puma etc - (do they practice autos in those things?)
The bell 47 is very nice in auto. I know a guy that can auto to the ground, lift it into the hover and do a 360 in it before putting it on the ground again - not got the balls to try it myself yet though!!!!
work on about 1/4 mile per 1000' in a R22. It might give you a rough estimate but you would have to factor in MAUW, W/V, etc etc. That's what I was taught, but never used the figures in real life. Go out in whatever heli you're using, start at 1500' and auto to 500' recovery. Use ground markers to see how far you get. Even going for a range auto doesn't exactly give you another 1/4 mile. No matter what you fly, I can pretty much guarantee you won't get where you want to be if you have to do it in anger! 
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Helimutt, why recover @ 500'? theres a lot more to go after that. Yes the entry & working out where you are going & how is vital but the bottom - flare, level, initial & cushion is the finish, practising autos without putting them on the ground is a waste of time.
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The various forms of auto are almost worthless in most cases. In an R22 90% rpm and 80kts will buy you about 20' from 1000' because although your groundspeed is higher so is your rate of descent. Unless over forest, built up area or sea, wouldn't even consider them. Also forget 0 speed autos you're better off with 360 turns or S turns.
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B47 and B206, auto at recommended IAS and with the RRPM reduced to the bottom of the RRPM band. AUM will have little effect in practice, just fly the needles and be in balance. That's the best you can hope for.
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What is the best distance say @ 80/90kt 1000 feet agl you could get out of ..... H300
Cheers
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The "best" speeds for autorotation exactly mirror the best speeds for powered flight. For best glide, the idea is the same as best range - least energy expended for most ground covered, and the speed is about the same. For least rate of descent, the idea is least energy expended to stay up, so the speed is very similar to the best rate of climb speed. For helos with appreciable speed range between Vbroc and Vbr, the glide speeds are useful. For helos with very slow cruise speeds 9Bell 47, anyone?) there is not much payoff to change speeds.
Also, like best range flight speed, the best glide speed increases with a head wind (by something like the wind speed) and
For the S76, the best glide in auto is about 115 knots, close to Vbr of 125. For least ROD, the auto speed is 74 knots, almost identical to the Vbroc of 65 to 75.
BTW the "best" speeds have nothing to do with blade inertia, because the speeds are used in steady state conditions. Inertia is your best friend at auto entry and near touchdown. On entry the stored energy in the inertia buys you time to drop collective. On touchdown, the inertia gives you a longer collective pull to find the ground.
Also, like best range flight speed, the best glide speed increases with a head wind (by something like the wind speed) and
For the S76, the best glide in auto is about 115 knots, close to Vbr of 125. For least ROD, the auto speed is 74 knots, almost identical to the Vbroc of 65 to 75.
BTW the "best" speeds have nothing to do with blade inertia, because the speeds are used in steady state conditions. Inertia is your best friend at auto entry and near touchdown. On entry the stored energy in the inertia buys you time to drop collective. On touchdown, the inertia gives you a longer collective pull to find the ground.
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Helimutt
Ok, then i take Mighty Gem's Quote
So if you are doing auto's to a fixed point on an airfield, thats good, you can touch down or do a power recovery depending on your status as an FI if you are teaching, cos throttle management is'nt taught in the UK, from what i've seen to pilots.. So what if you need to auto and do throttle management like a fire in flight (power on) or loss of tail....hmmmm... i'll come back to that
I think you are probably describing PFL's, even then, no good powering out at 500'. Where the accidents happen is where studs or pilots don't know how to flare out and manage the last bit without mangfering themselves and or pax!!
Pointless unless you do them all the way, even with a power recovery at 5 feet, they are usefull, but 500'. Nah Mike, talking bollocks!!
rotors88
total agreement there ;-)
Regards
MD
start at 1500' and auto to 500' recovery
Because in the UK you can't go below 500' unless you are intending to land etc etc.
I think you are probably describing PFL's, even then, no good powering out at 500'. Where the accidents happen is where studs or pilots don't know how to flare out and manage the last bit without mangfering themselves and or pax!!
Pointless unless you do them all the way, even with a power recovery at 5 feet, they are usefull, but 500'. Nah Mike, talking bollocks!!
rotors88
total agreement there ;-)
Regards
MD
MG:
Not strictly true - 500' from persons, vehicles, vessels or structures. During FI course last year, I spent a fair bit of time below 500' AGL in unoccupied pieces of countryside, at one point even doing a power recovery to a hover (apparently a bit late, according to Leon) in a field.
You can only "infringe" the 500' bubble when "landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice", if memory serves.
And I'll second MD900's comments . . .
Not strictly true - 500' from persons, vehicles, vessels or structures. During FI course last year, I spent a fair bit of time below 500' AGL in unoccupied pieces of countryside, at one point even doing a power recovery to a hover (apparently a bit late, according to Leon) in a field.
You can only "infringe" the 500' bubble when "landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice", if memory serves.
And I'll second MD900's comments . . .
I dont think there is any law that says you cantas belt over moorland or hill at 50ft is there ?!!
Rotors88 I hope you are not going to be one of those Twats that piles in doing his 100th EOL .....it is pointless as a 5-10ft recovery proves the point just as well . 100,s of perfectly good helis have been wrecked practicing for something that hardly ever happens
and barely a handfull have been wrecked due to the genuine thing.
Rotors88 I hope you are not going to be one of those Twats that piles in doing his 100th EOL .....it is pointless as a 5-10ft recovery proves the point just as well . 100,s of perfectly good helis have been wrecked practicing for something that hardly ever happens
and barely a handfull have been wrecked due to the genuine thing.
John, will you ever learn?
MD900 says,
So MD900, you have flown with non-instructors and had autos done to a hover/ground have you? You really do shoot yourself in the foot when you try to have a go at real instructors who also fly commercially in the real world. Some of us don't even instruct anymore. So come on, tell us what you know about throttle management for engine fire in flight?
Then again, maybe like your 'Single Engine' holds out in Norway eh? Go back to the bit about tail rotor failures please as you say you will. Interested to hear your views there mate.
Pointless eh? You, John, are fighting a losing battle here and would be better off putting your energies into something you were good at. Just a quick question? How many exams have you passed for CPL to date?The most important part of an auto is what? Getting into one in the first place if you ask me. You can practice the landings all day but if you don't get into auto immediately when required to do so, what follows is pointless! (see robinson safety video!!) If its for real, get into auto, control the descent, find somewhere half reasonable to land and then flare, level and then pull pitch. I'm sure the insurance company will sort out the last 6'.
Rotors88: Q/ Why recover at 500'? A/ See MightyGems answer above".
I was using it as an example to see how far you would get from 1000' if you were just practising distances etc. You could even use 2000' down to 1000' feet if you wanted !!!
The question wasn't how low should I go when practising autos or even anything to do with landings, unless I can't read.....
Ask a stupid question!!!
Nr Fairy: even a fence is classed as a structure so would depend on how big your field was. I'm not even getting into this argument.
So if you are doing auto's to a fixed point on an airfield, thats good, you can touch down or do a power recovery depending on your status as an FI if you are teaching, cos throttle management is'nt taught in the UK, from what i've seen to pilots.. So what if you need to auto and do throttle management like a fire in flight (power on) or loss of tail....hmmmm... i'll come back to that
Then again, maybe like your 'Single Engine' holds out in Norway eh? Go back to the bit about tail rotor failures please as you say you will. Interested to hear your views there mate.
Pointless eh? You, John, are fighting a losing battle here and would be better off putting your energies into something you were good at. Just a quick question? How many exams have you passed for CPL to date?
The most important part of an auto is what? Getting into one in the first place if you ask me. You can practice the landings all day but if you don't get into auto immediately when required to do so, what follows is pointless! (see robinson safety video!!) If its for real, get into auto, control the descent, find somewhere half reasonable to land and then flare, level and then pull pitch. I'm sure the insurance company will sort out the last 6'.Rotors88: Q/ Why recover at 500'? A/ See MightyGems answer above".
I was using it as an example to see how far you would get from 1000' if you were just practising distances etc. You could even use 2000' down to 1000' feet if you wanted !!!
The question wasn't how low should I go when practising autos or even anything to do with landings, unless I can't read.....
Ask a stupid question!!!
Nr Fairy: even a fence is classed as a structure so would depend on how big your field was. I'm not even getting into this argument.
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best glide
For your smaller helicopters I always consider the best rate of climb speed to give me the minimum rate of descent which corresponds to the most time for selection of suitable landing areas or the most favorable whichever is of paramount consideration.
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play with all the airspeeds and it hardly makes any difference to your rate of descent. Vertical velocity is only around 20 knots anyway at 2000ft per minute - that aint gonna kill you - the tree coming through the perspex will though !!
Playing with the airspeed in auto will give you a staggering rate of accuracy in selecting your touch down point - as long as you get enough back on for flare time of course !
Playing with the airspeed in auto will give you a staggering rate of accuracy in selecting your touch down point - as long as you get enough back on for flare time of course !
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IMHO maximum distance in auto as a yard stick to flying SE's is a slippery slope.
It is always easier to lose height than gain distance. A nearer field you can guarantee making is a far better option than chancing a distant field that you might make ( unless of course the distant field is the only option! Although the way things are going here that will turn into an airmanship discussion).
Few people die falling 6-8 feet. All die falling a couple of thousand. As an ex FI I'd insist a ppl could enter auto well,and make a reasonable job of the flare. Throttle control in a real auto is not required so why overload a ppl before they're able. The reality is that in a real auto 99.9% would mess up the flare and do the aircraft some damage.
It is always easier to lose height than gain distance. A nearer field you can guarantee making is a far better option than chancing a distant field that you might make ( unless of course the distant field is the only option! Although the way things are going here that will turn into an airmanship discussion).
Few people die falling 6-8 feet. All die falling a couple of thousand. As an ex FI I'd insist a ppl could enter auto well,and make a reasonable job of the flare. Throttle control in a real auto is not required so why overload a ppl before they're able. The reality is that in a real auto 99.9% would mess up the flare and do the aircraft some damage.
Totally agree with Flinginwings and FlyingSquirrel. They were/are instructors, unlike our friend who is but a PPL!
Anyway, I think the original question has had an answer now.
Anyway, I think the original question has had an answer now.