Sling Rating???
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: uk - south
Sling Rating???
Hello everyone,
can anyone tell me if a Sling rating exists under JAR and if it does could you point me in the direction of somewhere I might be able to get one??
I can't find any schools in the uk on the internet advertising any sling course which is why I'm starting to wonder if they exist.
Thanks for any help/advise you may have.
can anyone tell me if a Sling rating exists under JAR and if it does could you point me in the direction of somewhere I might be able to get one??
I can't find any schools in the uk on the internet advertising any sling course which is why I'm starting to wonder if they exist.
Thanks for any help/advise you may have.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
In some JAA countries you need special ratings additional to the JAR. These are national regulations.
A few years ago the bureaucrats planned a JAR-OPS 4 with regulations for the points not described in JAR-OPS 3. Sling load was a part of it. Due to the common chaos in our european aviation authorities this OPS 4 was cancelled. Therefore we have a lot of national regulations.
You don't need in the UK a sling rating/course, but may be in some other JAA countries.
A few years ago the bureaucrats planned a JAR-OPS 4 with regulations for the points not described in JAR-OPS 3. Sling load was a part of it. Due to the common chaos in our european aviation authorities this OPS 4 was cancelled. Therefore we have a lot of national regulations.
You don't need in the UK a sling rating/course, but may be in some other JAA countries.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 30
From: Europe
tecpilot,
What you have said is basically correct but I would characterise it slightly differently:
JAR-OPS 4 - Aerial Work, was requested by Authorities and Industry. It really had nothing to do with JAR-OPS 3 (Commercial Air Transport (CAT)) but was concerned with Aerial Work.
When looked at conceptually (as it was in this exercise), it was clear that we in the JAA had provided regulations for Fixed Wing and Helicopter CAT without a foundation regulation. The two reasons for this were that: (1) the aviation community were primarily interested in CAT cross border operations i.e. a level playing field across Europe; and (2) ICAO compliance was seen as the bottom line and Annex 6 is basically a CAT document (Annex 6 does not describe AW, skirts around International GA and has no model for vanilla GA). Clearly, if we were to provide a 'light touch' regulation for AW (and in fact for Business/Corporate Aviation) we would have to be more sophisticated than just providing JAR-OPS 4 (and JAR-OPS 2). We had to also provide the foundation document for General Avation (GA) - i.e. JAR-OPS 0.
After the concept was described, with diagrams and a narrative, it was tested on the JAA Operations Committee and, eventually, all the way up to the board. Once the go ahead was given, we prototyped the regulations and tested it on other parties until we thought we had arrived at the best solution. At that stage, it was populated with text and went out to A-NPA and was extensively commented.
Around this time, it was clear that EASA was coming to fruition and it was thought that completion of such a large project might not be possible before EASA's introduction -it was therefore allowed to sit on the shelf for several years. Now that EASA is about to take responsibility for Operations and Licencing, it has reappeared to provide the basis for their regulations.
Thanks for being patient up to now: there is no widespread scheme in Europe that is similar to the US (and other States) - i.e. qualification by licence endorsement. If the regulations remain as envisaged, it will still be the responsibility of the operator (AW operator in this case) to provide training and recency for AW tasks. Only that way are the risks assessed and appropriate measures put in place to control them.
Jim
What you have said is basically correct but I would characterise it slightly differently:
A few years ago the bureaucrats planned a JAR-OPS 4 with regulations for the points not described in JAR-OPS 3. Sling load was a part of it. Due to the common chaos in our European aviation authorities this OPS 4 was cancelled. Therefore we have a lot of national regulations.
When looked at conceptually (as it was in this exercise), it was clear that we in the JAA had provided regulations for Fixed Wing and Helicopter CAT without a foundation regulation. The two reasons for this were that: (1) the aviation community were primarily interested in CAT cross border operations i.e. a level playing field across Europe; and (2) ICAO compliance was seen as the bottom line and Annex 6 is basically a CAT document (Annex 6 does not describe AW, skirts around International GA and has no model for vanilla GA). Clearly, if we were to provide a 'light touch' regulation for AW (and in fact for Business/Corporate Aviation) we would have to be more sophisticated than just providing JAR-OPS 4 (and JAR-OPS 2). We had to also provide the foundation document for General Avation (GA) - i.e. JAR-OPS 0.
After the concept was described, with diagrams and a narrative, it was tested on the JAA Operations Committee and, eventually, all the way up to the board. Once the go ahead was given, we prototyped the regulations and tested it on other parties until we thought we had arrived at the best solution. At that stage, it was populated with text and went out to A-NPA and was extensively commented.
Around this time, it was clear that EASA was coming to fruition and it was thought that completion of such a large project might not be possible before EASA's introduction -it was therefore allowed to sit on the shelf for several years. Now that EASA is about to take responsibility for Operations and Licencing, it has reappeared to provide the basis for their regulations.
Thanks for being patient up to now: there is no widespread scheme in Europe that is similar to the US (and other States) - i.e. qualification by licence endorsement. If the regulations remain as envisaged, it will still be the responsibility of the operator (AW operator in this case) to provide training and recency for AW tasks. Only that way are the risks assessed and appropriate measures put in place to control them.
Jim
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
JimL,
Did I interpet your statement as saying the US FAA uses a "license" endorsement to show ability to do underslung work? (Sling loads or external load to us here on the western edge of the Saltwater Divide)
If my perception of what you said is correct then I must take issue with the statement.
We use FAR Part 133 to deal with that. The Operator's Chief Pilot or Check Airman is designated to do the check rides and training and the approval is done by annotating the pilot's training record and providing him a written document showing the successful completion of the trainng an check ride. It is not however a part of the pilot's "license".
The FAA license deals with ratings and types of aircraft but not slinging ops.
Did I interpet your statement as saying the US FAA uses a "license" endorsement to show ability to do underslung work? (Sling loads or external load to us here on the western edge of the Saltwater Divide)
If my perception of what you said is correct then I must take issue with the statement.
We use FAR Part 133 to deal with that. The Operator's Chief Pilot or Check Airman is designated to do the check rides and training and the approval is done by annotating the pilot's training record and providing him a written document showing the successful completion of the trainng an check ride. It is not however a part of the pilot's "license".
The FAA license deals with ratings and types of aircraft but not slinging ops.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Thanks JimL,
i believe there is no member here knowing so much about this field! And sure it was a hell of work.
I do not believe that giving the operators all the operation qualification rights in future will improve the safety and standards.
Due to the EASA opening we lost a lot of years. And we have a lot of national regulations meanwhile, filling the wholes in european laws. Dusting, night ops, high mountains, sling load , human external cargo,... ,...,... And how we can be sure that under the big costs of some qualifications the operator does not go the cheapest way?
I remember the magic OPS4 words: HELO, HAGO,... This first OPS4 papers sounded good to me!
i believe there is no member here knowing so much about this field! And sure it was a hell of work.
I do not believe that giving the operators all the operation qualification rights in future will improve the safety and standards.
Due to the EASA opening we lost a lot of years. And we have a lot of national regulations meanwhile, filling the wholes in european laws. Dusting, night ops, high mountains, sling load , human external cargo,... ,...,... And how we can be sure that under the big costs of some qualifications the operator does not go the cheapest way?
I remember the magic OPS4 words: HELO, HAGO,... This first OPS4 papers sounded good to me!
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 30
From: Europe
tecpilot,
...and those have not disappeared; the basic scheme of the lightweight AWC and codes of practice (provided and maintained by the operators) are, I understand, still around.
I agree with you about the lost years, it was the reason for the parting of the ways.
Jim
...and those have not disappeared; the basic scheme of the lightweight AWC and codes of practice (provided and maintained by the operators) are, I understand, still around.
I agree with you about the lost years, it was the reason for the parting of the ways.
Jim
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
From: England
Sling Load Ratings? UK, such a thing?
As above really, Is there such thing as a sling load rating in the UK? How does it all work?
Can a ppl(h) sling load etc.... Whats are the rules regarding it all?
I know we don't use sling loads much in the UK like other countrys but I'm just very curious.
Look forward to your comments.......
Oh and dont say, why would a ppl wanna sling load, it's CAN he/she legally do it etc....
Can a ppl(h) sling load etc.... Whats are the rules regarding it all?
I know we don't use sling loads much in the UK like other countrys but I'm just very curious.
Look forward to your comments.......
Oh and dont say, why would a ppl wanna sling load, it's CAN he/she legally do it etc....
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
There is no formal qualification in the UK.
There's no law against a PPL(H) doing slinging, but you would be wise to get some training! Helicopter Services in Wycombe would be a good start.
Phil
There's no law against a PPL(H) doing slinging, but you would be wise to get some training! Helicopter Services in Wycombe would be a good start.
Phil
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,383
Likes: 1
From: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Mmmm ...
As an aside .... in Australia there is a "Sling-load Operations" endorsement which gets entered on your license.
Used to have to have a separate (sling endorsement) for each type but along the way some sensibility crept in (very unusual) ... I believe now you get a blanket type coverage after the initial endorsement.
As usual I stand to be corrected as may be necessary!
Cheers
As an aside .... in Australia there is a "Sling-load Operations" endorsement which gets entered on your license.
Used to have to have a separate (sling endorsement) for each type but along the way some sensibility crept in (very unusual) ... I believe now you get a blanket type coverage after the initial endorsement.
As usual I stand to be corrected as may be necessary!
Cheers
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
spinwing,
It was "Sling Ops: all heli <2750kg" plus individual type approvals for those >2750kg, back in the days of DoT, then Australia CAA.
Now our enlightened CASA (as you say) have just a Sling Ops endorsement for all types, regardless of weight. Much the same story for Hoist Ops, too
I'm surprised that the UK CAA, with such stringent requirements for far more mundane issues, do not have similar approvals
It was "Sling Ops: all heli <2750kg" plus individual type approvals for those >2750kg, back in the days of DoT, then Australia CAA.
Now our enlightened CASA (as you say) have just a Sling Ops endorsement for all types, regardless of weight. Much the same story for Hoist Ops, too
I'm surprised that the UK CAA, with such stringent requirements for far more mundane issues, do not have similar approvals
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Friend of mine has worked in 20 odd countries and with many various operators and long liners. Tells me there is a huge differnce between someone who can properly long line with precision and a Pilot that says he can do it. Many can't even fly Vertical reference!! How do you do a precise job if you don't look outside and at the line.
Anyway he tells me there is a very high houred Pilot who works for one of the very reputable lift companies setting in a training academy for this type of work. Tells me he works with him and he is seriously good! I will keep you updated if i hear anything else. PM me for more details
Anyway he tells me there is a very high houred Pilot who works for one of the very reputable lift companies setting in a training academy for this type of work. Tells me he works with him and he is seriously good! I will keep you updated if i hear anything else. PM me for more details
